Franklin 165

[busav8or]

Hi All,
I'm considering stepping back into aircraft ownership after about 31 years! I've found a 1950 A model that really looks great for a reasonable asking price and it has a Franklin 165 engine. My question is, is there any disadvantage to this engine with maintenance and resale value due to the questionable (at least, that seems to be what I'm reading) availability of parts? Would any of you be a little leery of this airplane because of the engine type? Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide.

Joe

[Brad Brady]

Joe,
Parts can be a problem. In the past several months I have had the opportunity to work on a Franklin. Opportunity being a relative term. There are several nuances of the Franklin, Like, this is the only hydraulic liftered engine I have worked on, that also needs a valve lash setting every, I think 200 HRS. But when they are running, they seem to be nearly bulletproof. I'm not afraid of them. They are just different......Brad

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Yes unfortunately I'd be leery. Franklin's are good engines but even good engines need parts. Before I bought one I'd want lots of assurance I could find the parts I might need. I doubt I could find that assurance.

[Brad Brady]

Yes unfortunately I'd be leery. Franklin's are good engines but even good engines need parts. Before I bought one I'd want lots of assurance I could find the parts I might need. I doubt I could find that assurance.

Yes Bruce is right! so far, I haven't had a problem getting parts...seems that someone somewhere can deliver the parts. Also the company in Poland that has been building new parts is in flux. Parts are available. But who knows what parts? at what time? So that is a problem. I'm not necessarily afraid of the engine.....I'm just like Bruce, I'm a little afraid of part distribution.........Brad

[GAHorn]

If you like the airplane, keep the matters mentioned in-mind as you negotiate price. If it's any reassurance, there's a lot of Franklin 165 engines out there on Stinsons. But if you need a new crankshaft you might have to search and pay for it.
Try this for an excersize: Look thru Trade-A-Plane and try to purchase cylinders, crank, cam, connecting rods and lifters and valves, and see if you can actually pay money for them and get them shipped to you in CERTIFIED condition with fresh tags. If you like the prices...then you'll know what you're dealing with as you operate and as you later try to sell it.

[busav8or]

Thanks for all the great advice. You have confirmed what I was afraid of. There are too many other planes available with Continentals to take on the possible problems of the Franklin for me! Thanks again.

Joe

[hilltop170]

I have no experience with Franklins but have been told by those who do that it is a 500hr engine. I know a couple of guys who had them come apart in the air but then Continentals and Lycs do too. So it is a crap shoot no matter what. Knowing what engine replacement/installations cost, I personally would not pay any more for a Franklin powered C-170 than I would for the same 170 without an engine.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

How much do you want the extra 20 horses? That's a lot in a relatively light airplane, at an extreme savings over the 180hp and 210 hp conversions.

It is what attracted me to my airplane. I have not had any problems getting parts as of yet, except that you have to live with overhauled parts instead of new in some cases. How is that different than the C-145? Would I do it again? Well, that's a question complicated by the fact that I would not likely buy a 170 again with any engine combination, with my change in mission requirements. Hate to say something like that on here

I lost a cylinder in the air at about 450SMOH, circumferential cylinder case cracking that resulted in catastrophic failure. I just read a post the other day where the same thing recently happened to a Mooney with a IO-360 - AOPA's impossible turn article :shrug:

I would say the same thing Richard did. Doesn't make it a more valuable airplane, nor does it make it a less valuable one. I do believe based on what I have observed and what others have told me that in many ways it is actually cheaper to maintain over a life span. Don't believe me go price six new cylinders for a O-300.

[GAHorn]

... I do believe based on what I have observed and what others have told me that in many ways it is actually cheaper to maintain over a life span. Don't believe me go price six new cylinders for a O-300.

I appreciate what you've said. However that last example is not an apples to apples comparision.
For example: Try to find new Franklin cylinders at all... at any price! (And as you've already experienced, used/rebuilt/repaired cylinders have higher failure rates because they have more cycles on them.)

[mike roe]

Any questions on Franklins it is best to talk to these people.Ask for Vicki.
Franklin Engine Company
300 Private Road 5881A
Jewett, TX 75846-5601

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

My 170 is a collection of parts and most of the paperwork to cover it. I like it for what it is, a one of a kind, a 180 degree departure from those who have mostly original planes and near perfect paperwork. As most here know by know I'm faced with a damaged airplane and the choice of if or how to fix it. The hair on the back of my next is standing up and I feel like taking a ball peen hammer and straightening those panels my self and or replacing them with experienced parts which hopefully are painted the wrong color. The plane could only get better. Even so I would not buy my 170 again. But somehow I don't know if I'd be as happy with the mostly original example either.

You know I'd love to have those extra 20 phonies up front. Having said that if I had a Franklin I would love it and would defend it fiercely. Finding the parts and keeping this engine running with them would become part of the challenge of owning a 60 year old airplane. I'd think it special and just a bit better because it is what it is, an example of 170 you don't find on every convention ramp. As I implied earlier I would only buy a Franklin powered 170 in a weak moment or special circumstances. I have a lot of special weak moments.

[GAHorn]

Any questions on Franklins it is best to talk to these people.Ask for Vicki.
Franklin Engine Company
300 Private Road 5881A
Jewett, TX 75846-5601

I have had personal and upfront discussions with these folks at Reklaw when they had "parts for sale" tables ...errr, ... table .... (one)...there. They had some rocker-box gaskets. They had some spark plugs. They had some Sky-Tec starters. They had a lot of talk about how new engines and crankshafts and such would soon be available. Any month now. I think that was in 2003. Same story in 2004. And again a year or so after that. That was ALL they had. They've quit coming to Reklaw to display anything.

Let me see if I can inject a little reality to this discussion.

On the "Franklin Engine Company" official website their home page has the following information:

"NOW TAKING DEPOSIT FOR THE NEXT RUN OF NEW CERTIFIED PISTONS FOR YOUR NEXT OVERHAUL. A DEPOSIT WILL BE REQUIRED AND WILL BE HELD UNTIL QUOTA IS MET TO PLACE THE ORDER, SO ACT NOW IF YOU WANT A SET OF NEW PISTONS. IF OUOTA IS MET IN 6 MONTHS IT WILL THEN TAKE ANOTHER 6 MONTHS BEFORE THE ORDER COMES IN. MOST OF YOUR ORIGINAL PISTONS ARE WORN OUT IN YOUR ENGINES. I CAN'T ORDER YOUR PARTS FOR YOUR ENGINES ANY MORE WITHOUT YOUR HELP. THE PISTON THAT WILL BE ORDERED WILL BE THE HELICOPTER PISTON WITH THE STEEL INSERT IN THE TOP GROOVE AND A SMALL AMOUNT WILL HAVE TO BE MILLED OFF THE TOP.

AND YOU WILL STILL HAVE TO FILE A 337. "

Does that tell you anything? (Hint: there are no pistons. Certified pistons require a one-year lead time, and then you'll have to make an unauthorized modification to them (which will kill their "certified" status) to make them fit your airplane. You will then have to obtain your own approval from the FAA using a Form 337. I don't know how many of you have ever had any success getting internal engine parts approved on 337's, but I'll leave it to you to figure out how simple that process will be.)

Their website has several pages, each dedicated to their services available. On the Parts page, they offer the usual rocker gaskets and pump parts you can get anywhere else (because they are common to many other engines) and they also offer pistons (about which we already know the real story.)
What I find very telling is what they have listed For Sale on their "For Sale" page. They have....nothing at all. Everything is "coming soon". It's been that way for years.

I wish it were a different story, but that is the current status of Franklin engines.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

You know I'd love to have those extra 20 phonies up front. Having said that if I had a Franklin I would love it and would defend it fiercely. Finding the parts and keeping this engine running with them would become part of the challenge of owning a 60 year old airplane. I'd think it special and just a bit better because it is what it is, an example of 170 you don't find on every convention ramp. As I implied earlier I would only buy a Franklin powered 170 in a weak moment or special circumstances. I have a lot of special weak moments.

Well, I'm not fiercely defending it I'm just saying that I have not experienced the issues that are always spoken about in forums like these. I bought it with the thought in the back of my mind that if it ever truly went TU I would have a good airframe to put a Lycoming conversion on. My thoughts have changed on that since then, but I don't think my purchase decision was the wrong one - far from it, I have really enjoyed the 165 horses with a climb prop out front. And having an unusual bird, like you said.

I experienced my cylinder problem, and yes, it might have been because of the age of the cylinder cases, or it could have been because of something else, like any other cylinder crack on any other engine. I chose to split the case and overhaul the bottom end to service limits at that time because of a concern with a lot of metal from the cylinder bouncing around in the engine after a ill-advised field repair afterwards to get me home (which is another story which has nothing to do with Franklin engines.) We replaced a lot of parts at that time and I had no problems getting anything I needed, and it was dirt cheap to do. Most parts came from Jewett. As it turns out my concerns were unfounded, there was no damage, but what are you going to do? Technically I now have a low time SMOH engine, though some buyers won't like the Service Limits overhaul. I'll make both overhaul times available to them.

There are a lot of Maules and Stinsons flying around with Franklins, and I don't see them being grounded for parts availability either. But no, you can't call any Cessnas-r-us number and get anything you want. A situation we are all familiar with, with our old airframe and all.

When I sell 77C to move on to something with a bit more useful load and cruise speed I expect it will sit some time on the market before it is picked up by someone who understands the benefits as well as the liabilities.

[mike roe]

As far as contacting Vicki in Jewitt,I think she is fair and will be up front on Franklin issues.She learned from the Franklin master.I had a 108-3 for 10 years with the 165.Had some cylinder problems but what doesnt.It was a wonderful smooth engine and never left me.I loved the way it sounded at idle.Hopefully the parts scource will open up.But?We could be having this same discussion on 0-300s in 10 years.

[GAHorn]

Well, yes, any curent productin engine could be in the same boat n 10 years, but CURRENTLY Teledyne Continental is actually in business, and they make new crankshafts and new cylinders, valves, pistons, rings, bearings, cams, pump gears, accessory gears, etc etc. I believe this indicates that whatever parts are available now in new condition will more likely still be available in 10 years in airworhty condition, many of them still in NOS packaging.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not "down" on Franklin engines or Vicki or those fine folks over in my neighboring town of Jewett. I wish they could produce what they hope to promise. I just wouldn't hold my breath and I certainly would not be buying a Franklin engine for a daily flivver. But might consider one for a historical purchase, or with the full expectation of it being a "throw-away" engine when it was run-out.

(Three years ago I actually talked a friend into buying a 150 hp Franklin-powered Stinson for a training airplane. I did so because it was cheap, and it served the purpose well. When he finished getting his license and built a little time, he bought a O-300-powered, straight-tail 172 for his permanent personal-use aircraft. (The insurance company told him they were totalling his little prop-stricken Franklin Stinson. They simply could not get it economically repaired due to lack of parts. With the time nearing overhaul on his engine, it was probably the only way he would ever get his money back out of that airplane. Conversion to a 165 Franklin or any other engine was out of the question. With a Franklin 170, at least there are other engines which can easily be installed per the type certificate and the many STC's.)

(This opinion is not intended to be argumentive....only a discussion. Differences of opinion are common on this subject.)