During annual, found battery box was corroded right through to the firewall and today we removed it. I decided to buy a sealed battery- they come in two main flavors- gel or lead acid. Does anyone have experience with these batteries ?
BTW, removing the battery box was a bear ! Now I'll shop for a new one. Advice appreciated on this also.
Rudy
sealed battery- gel or acid ?
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
Rudy,
Put in an Odyssey Dry Cell battery and save yourself 10 lbs. and get a better battery to boot!!! These are neither a gel cell or a lead acid, but what they call an "absorbed electrolyte type battery". They never leak, last longer, hold a charge in cold weather longer, can be shipped non hazmat, etc, etc. My IA installed a PC625 2 years ago and they are the hot ticket. My battery just required a couple wood blocks to shim it in the existing battery box but if your battery box is shot, they have new hold down brackets designed just for these batteries. Almost every airplane owner I know with supercubs to C-180's is putting them or Model PC680 in up here when battery replacement time comes. IMHO there is no downside to the installation. Field approval (recommended) or midnight mechanic approval required.
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/aircraft.htm
Bruce
Put in an Odyssey Dry Cell battery and save yourself 10 lbs. and get a better battery to boot!!! These are neither a gel cell or a lead acid, but what they call an "absorbed electrolyte type battery". They never leak, last longer, hold a charge in cold weather longer, can be shipped non hazmat, etc, etc. My IA installed a PC625 2 years ago and they are the hot ticket. My battery just required a couple wood blocks to shim it in the existing battery box but if your battery box is shot, they have new hold down brackets designed just for these batteries. Almost every airplane owner I know with supercubs to C-180's is putting them or Model PC680 in up here when battery replacement time comes. IMHO there is no downside to the installation. Field approval (recommended) or midnight mechanic approval required.
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/aircraft.htm
Bruce
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Odyssey Batteries
Notice that the PC-625 can be purchased on line for about $80 + shipping. Don't know what the shipping charge is however. Shipping weight is 15 lbs. Do you know what the actual weight is? How does this compare weight wise to a Gill G-25? Does it fit the battery box OK? I notice you mention using some wooden blocks. Cables that go to a standard aircraft battery fit the Odyssey? Finally, is the PC-625 the only 12/14 volt battery that will fit our type airplanes?
Will appreciate your input.
Will appreciate your input.
OLE POKEY
170C
Director:
2012-2018
170C
Director:
2012-2018
Wilco has an STC to install sealed Concorde lead acid batteries in the 170. I put the RG-25XC in my 170B and feel that it outperforms the Gill 25. http://www.wilcoaircraftparts.com 800-767-7593
Actual weight of an Odyssey PC625 is 13.2 lbs vs about 23 lbs for a Gill. Saves a nice 10 lbs or so. Yes the 625 fits the battery box fine. Now that I think about it, my IA used foam blocks to shim it in, not wood. Yes, use the same cables, although the nut used on the battery post is small, (almost the same diameter as the holes in the cables) he used some fender washers to attach the cables to the battery. I think I paid about $100 for mine thru my mechanic. If you read thru the advantages of these batteries; especially the weight savings, their long life (10-12 years), ability to deep cycle without degradation and ability to hold a charge for long periods of time compared to lead acid, it's really a no brainer decision.
Bruce
Bruce
Bruce,If you read thru the advantages of these batteries; especially the weight savings, their long life (10-12 years), ability to deep cycle without degradation and ability to hold a charge for long periods of time compared to lead acid, it's really a no brainer decision.
Boy do I want to beleive that claim!!! Heck for $200 it would still be a good deal. Can anyone substantiate the lifespan of these batteries???
JJH55
I've read up on the Odyssey but never saw any claims of 10year + life. Where did they say that?
As is usually the case with this sort of thing, you don't get something for nothing.
Comparing the Odyssey P625 to the Gill G-25, the Odyssey only produces out 12.3 AH versus the Gill 18 AH. That's quite a difference.
The Cold Cranking Amps is also more with the Gill. The reserve capacity of the Odyssey is only 25 minutes while the Gill is 30 minutes (and the Gill has 5 more Amps draw at that longer rate.) The Gill is PMA'd for the aircraft industry for all aircraft, and the G25 is specifically approved for the 170, while the Odyysey only has approval for a couple of Pipers.
Of course, Gill had a head-start, they've been making batteries since the 1920's. I have a 4-year old Gill G=25 that shows no signs of giving up. (Knock on wood. I sprinkle baking soda inside the battery box to counteract any acid fumes/spills, and wash it out every 100 hour/ 6-month inspection as a preventive measure. )
The Odyysey FAQ's section states they require a special charging rate that is outside the range of aircraft regulators. (14.2-15 volts versus 13.2 -13.9 for aircraft regulators.)
The Odyysey is not a "gel cell'. They are a "starved lead acid" meaning they have no excess acid other than the minimum req'd for function, which is absorbed by a fiber mat between the plates. This would be good for preventing overservicing (since they can't be serviced), and which is usually the reason for acid spills and/or corrosion. (You can't check the specific gravity of electrolyte in an Odyysey or a Gel cell like you can with a Gill. This means that unlike a lead-acid, you can't determine the health of them without discharging them with special equipment.)
If you don't think you'll ever need more than the minimum cranking or reserve from a battery they ought to work fine, if you can get them approved for installation. My unsolicited 2 cents.
As is usually the case with this sort of thing, you don't get something for nothing.
Comparing the Odyssey P625 to the Gill G-25, the Odyssey only produces out 12.3 AH versus the Gill 18 AH. That's quite a difference.
The Cold Cranking Amps is also more with the Gill. The reserve capacity of the Odyssey is only 25 minutes while the Gill is 30 minutes (and the Gill has 5 more Amps draw at that longer rate.) The Gill is PMA'd for the aircraft industry for all aircraft, and the G25 is specifically approved for the 170, while the Odyysey only has approval for a couple of Pipers.
Of course, Gill had a head-start, they've been making batteries since the 1920's. I have a 4-year old Gill G=25 that shows no signs of giving up. (Knock on wood. I sprinkle baking soda inside the battery box to counteract any acid fumes/spills, and wash it out every 100 hour/ 6-month inspection as a preventive measure. )
The Odyysey FAQ's section states they require a special charging rate that is outside the range of aircraft regulators. (14.2-15 volts versus 13.2 -13.9 for aircraft regulators.)
The Odyysey is not a "gel cell'. They are a "starved lead acid" meaning they have no excess acid other than the minimum req'd for function, which is absorbed by a fiber mat between the plates. This would be good for preventing overservicing (since they can't be serviced), and which is usually the reason for acid spills and/or corrosion. (You can't check the specific gravity of electrolyte in an Odyysey or a Gel cell like you can with a Gill. This means that unlike a lead-acid, you can't determine the health of them without discharging them with special equipment.)
If you don't think you'll ever need more than the minimum cranking or reserve from a battery they ought to work fine, if you can get them approved for installation. My unsolicited 2 cents.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Thanks Gahorn, I was afraid we weren't getting enough face time lately!! I was only slightly incorrect about the battery life. Design life is 10 years, service life 3-8 eight years. As far as the charging rate necessary being outside that of aircraft voltage regulators, all I can say is it works fine, mine and literally hundreds of others so there is no issue here. These batteries also spin the starter faster and I think the engine starts easier and faster because of it. Yes, a field approval is required, big deal. The approvals for these battery installations are no big deal in Alaska anyway. The fact is that everyone I know with these batteries loves them, they save 10 lbs, probably last way longer than Gill, are maintenance free (no box corrosion issues either) and start the plane easier. George, if you enjoy servicing your battery and washing out your battery box every 100 hours, go for it. I'll stick with this new battery which has been absolutely trouble free for over 250 hours and 2 years so far.
Text taken from the Odyssey site is as follows:
The ODYSSEY® Drycell battery combines in one box the characteristics of two separate batteries. It can deep cycle as well as provide enormous cranking power.
These dry cell batteries are capable of providing engine cranking pulses in excess of 1700A for 5 seconds as well as 400 charge/discharge cycles to 100% depth of discharge (DOD). A typical starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) battery can do one or the other, but not both. Conventional batteries are either a sprinter or a long distance runner; An ODYSSEY® battery will do both — provide short duration high amperage pulse or low rate long duration drains.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guaranteed longer service life - The ODYSSEY® battery, with a ten year design life and a three-to-eight year service life, saves you time and money because you do not have to replace your battery as often. It is also the ONLY battery that is capable of delivering a large number of deep cycles - up to 400 when fully discharged or up to 500 when discharged to 80%. Plus, the battery is specially designed for high vibration applications.
Longer storage life - Unlike conventional batteries that need to be recharged every six to twelve weeks, the ODYSSEY® battery, when fully charged , can be stored for up to 2 years at room temperature (25°C, 77°F). At lower temperatures, storage times will be even longer.
Overdischarge/deep discharge recovery - The ease with which the ODYSSEY® battery recovers from this type of application abuse is unheard of. Should ODYSSEY® become deeply discharged, simply recharge following instructions in the ODYSSEY® Owners Manual.
Superior cranking and fast recharge capability - The 5 second cranking power of ODYSSEY® batteries is double to triple that of equally sized conventional batteries, even when the temperature is as low as -40°C. Also, with simple constant voltage charging (alternator or independant charger), there is no limitation on the inrush current, so the user is assured of fast charge recovery.
Mounting flexibility - The ODYSSEY® battery may be installed in any orientation except inverted without sacrificing any performance attributes.
Superior vibration resistance - ODYSSEY® batteries are of military grade and have endured very rigorous tests that demonstrate their overall ruggedness and exceptional tolerance of mechanical abuse.
Worry-free shipping - The sealed Drycell™ design of the ODYSSEY® battery eliminates the need for acid vent tubes so there is no more fear of acid burns or damage to expensive chrome or paint. Owing to the starved-electrolyte design, the US Department of Transportation (USDOT) has classified the ODYSSEY® battery as a dry battery, so it may be shipped worry-free by UPS/Federal Express or by air.
Ready out of the box - ODYSSEY® batteries are shipped fully charged. If ODYSSEY® voltage is 12.65V or greater simply install the battery in your vehicle and you are ready to go! If below 12.65V, boost charge following the instructions in the ODYSSEY® Owner's Manual.
Maintenance free - No routine maintenance of ODYSSEY® batteries is required.
I was only slightly incorrect about the battery life. Design life is 10 years, service life 3-8 eight years. As far as the charging rate necessary being outside that of aircraft voltage regulators, all I can say is it works fine, mine and literally hundreds of others so there is no issue here. These batteries also spin the starter faster and I think the engine starts easier and faster because of it. Yes, a field approval is required, big deal. The approvals for these battery installations are no big deal in Alaska anyway. The fact is that everyone I know with these batteries loves them, they save 10 lbs, probably last way longer than Gill, are maintenance free (no box corrosion issues either) and start the plane easier. George, if you enjoy servicing your battery and washing out your battery box every 100 hours, go for it. I'll stick with this new battery which has been absolutely trouble free for over 250 hours and 2 years so far.Text taken from the Odyssey site is as follows:
The ODYSSEY® Drycell battery combines in one box the characteristics of two separate batteries. It can deep cycle as well as provide enormous cranking power.
These dry cell batteries are capable of providing engine cranking pulses in excess of 1700A for 5 seconds as well as 400 charge/discharge cycles to 100% depth of discharge (DOD). A typical starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) battery can do one or the other, but not both. Conventional batteries are either a sprinter or a long distance runner; An ODYSSEY® battery will do both — provide short duration high amperage pulse or low rate long duration drains.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guaranteed longer service life - The ODYSSEY® battery, with a ten year design life and a three-to-eight year service life, saves you time and money because you do not have to replace your battery as often. It is also the ONLY battery that is capable of delivering a large number of deep cycles - up to 400 when fully discharged or up to 500 when discharged to 80%. Plus, the battery is specially designed for high vibration applications.
Longer storage life - Unlike conventional batteries that need to be recharged every six to twelve weeks, the ODYSSEY® battery, when fully charged , can be stored for up to 2 years at room temperature (25°C, 77°F). At lower temperatures, storage times will be even longer.
Overdischarge/deep discharge recovery - The ease with which the ODYSSEY® battery recovers from this type of application abuse is unheard of. Should ODYSSEY® become deeply discharged, simply recharge following instructions in the ODYSSEY® Owners Manual.
Superior cranking and fast recharge capability - The 5 second cranking power of ODYSSEY® batteries is double to triple that of equally sized conventional batteries, even when the temperature is as low as -40°C. Also, with simple constant voltage charging (alternator or independant charger), there is no limitation on the inrush current, so the user is assured of fast charge recovery.
Mounting flexibility - The ODYSSEY® battery may be installed in any orientation except inverted without sacrificing any performance attributes.
Superior vibration resistance - ODYSSEY® batteries are of military grade and have endured very rigorous tests that demonstrate their overall ruggedness and exceptional tolerance of mechanical abuse.
Worry-free shipping - The sealed Drycell™ design of the ODYSSEY® battery eliminates the need for acid vent tubes so there is no more fear of acid burns or damage to expensive chrome or paint. Owing to the starved-electrolyte design, the US Department of Transportation (USDOT) has classified the ODYSSEY® battery as a dry battery, so it may be shipped worry-free by UPS/Federal Express or by air.
Ready out of the box - ODYSSEY® batteries are shipped fully charged. If ODYSSEY® voltage is 12.65V or greater simply install the battery in your vehicle and you are ready to go! If below 12.65V, boost charge following the instructions in the ODYSSEY® Owner's Manual.
Maintenance free - No routine maintenance of ODYSSEY® batteries is required.
Last edited by N3243A on Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
George is right about overservicing being the leading cause of corrosion. I'm sure that's what caused my problem. Anyway, I ordered a sealed Concorde lead acid battery from Spruce and a new battery box from Broadie's Aircraft (in Ft. Worth TX) for $48. I hope the box works; I understand that Cessna get $411 for a battery box with lid !
Wentworth charge $195 for a used one.
Rudy
Wentworth charge $195 for a used one.
Rudy
if need = loose 10 ugly poundsthen
cut off head
else
buy lighter battery.
Ever since Thanksgiving & Christmas I have an extra 10 pounds that ain't going away very easy.
Bruce, are you charging your new battery with an alternator or generator. Curious to know if the old generators will work with it.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
I didn't mean to appear "testy" about the Odyysey, I was only quoting their own literature about their battery's charger requirements. I'm sure any ordinary generator/alternator system will put a charge in it. I'm also pretty sure they'll claim their battery failed because the owner didn't charge it properly if ever there's a questionable warranty claim made.
As for posting all their sales literature, "...The 5 second cranking power of ODYSSEY® batteries is double to triple that of equally sized conventional batteries,..." is the very statement my previous message proved misleading if not downright dishonest. Their own Amp-Hour claims (12.3) do not even come close to "conventional" batteries such as Gill's 18 Amp Hours. The only way their claim can hold water (sorry for the pun) is to realize their caveat is their battery's irregular size....no other battery has that odd shape/dimensions. That's one reason someone's mechanic had to stuff foam or wood or something in the battery box with it, in order to hold it in position. It's lighter because it's smaller, and that was why it's also not as robust as larger batteries...the reason I had said you don't get something for nothing.
(BTW, the reason their battery can deep-cycle without damage is because their plates are seperated with absorption mat with their "starved" electrolyte design. They make that apples-to-oranges comparison of their battery with "conventional" batteries,- meaning automotive/marine designs. Aircraft batteries such as lead-acid Gills also have their plates isolated from deep-cycle shorting by seperators, and are also not harmed by deep-cycle discharges like "conventional" batteries. )
"Pulse" starts improve all battery's performance specs equally, not just theirs.
And I like servicing my battery, as well as the rest of my airplane. I feel more intimately familiar with it's over-all condition that way.
But Eric and Bruce both make valid points, and I didn't mean to seem argumentive,....the weight savings might be important....unless your CG is like mine and gets too far aft too easily. In my case, I don't want to lose 10 lbs in front of my firewall, I want to lose it back aft!
This is not a "I'm right and your wrong" type of message. It's just that if the discussion is about different battery types that someone is trying to make heads or tails of,... then it occurred to me that pointing out the factual differences of the batteries in addition to the various personal experiences... instead of relying on advertising is a good way to make the choice.
As for posting all their sales literature, "...The 5 second cranking power of ODYSSEY® batteries is double to triple that of equally sized conventional batteries,..." is the very statement my previous message proved misleading if not downright dishonest. Their own Amp-Hour claims (12.3) do not even come close to "conventional" batteries such as Gill's 18 Amp Hours. The only way their claim can hold water (sorry for the pun) is to realize their caveat is their battery's irregular size....no other battery has that odd shape/dimensions. That's one reason someone's mechanic had to stuff foam or wood or something in the battery box with it, in order to hold it in position. It's lighter because it's smaller, and that was why it's also not as robust as larger batteries...the reason I had said you don't get something for nothing.
(BTW, the reason their battery can deep-cycle without damage is because their plates are seperated with absorption mat with their "starved" electrolyte design. They make that apples-to-oranges comparison of their battery with "conventional" batteries,- meaning automotive/marine designs. Aircraft batteries such as lead-acid Gills also have their plates isolated from deep-cycle shorting by seperators, and are also not harmed by deep-cycle discharges like "conventional" batteries. )
"Pulse" starts improve all battery's performance specs equally, not just theirs.
And I like servicing my battery, as well as the rest of my airplane. I feel more intimately familiar with it's over-all condition that way.
But Eric and Bruce both make valid points, and I didn't mean to seem argumentive,....the weight savings might be important....unless your CG is like mine and gets too far aft too easily. In my case, I don't want to lose 10 lbs in front of my firewall, I want to lose it back aft!
This is not a "I'm right and your wrong" type of message. It's just that if the discussion is about different battery types that someone is trying to make heads or tails of,... then it occurred to me that pointing out the factual differences of the batteries in addition to the various personal experiences... instead of relying on advertising is a good way to make the choice.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
-
rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
Don't rush to Brodiy's to buy that $48 battery box... upon checking with them I learned that what they called a "Battery Box" on their web page is actually a kit to comply with a service bulletin !
Per George's advice I called Cessna Parts.com (Hill Aircraft in ATL) who were kind enough to give me the correct part number.
The battery box without the lid P/N is: 0413307-18. The list price is $615 but Hill would sell me one for only $515- what a deal ! (The lid alone has a list price of around $300 !)
I then called around for a used one but was unablre to locate. Several places had them but with corrosion damage. (I already have one of those). Anyway, my Plan B is to meet with an aircraft sheet metal man tomorrow. ( A very skilled and experienced guy) He'll either try to repair my old one or build a new one. Stay tuned...
Rudy
Per George's advice I called Cessna Parts.com (Hill Aircraft in ATL) who were kind enough to give me the correct part number.
The battery box without the lid P/N is: 0413307-18. The list price is $615 but Hill would sell me one for only $515- what a deal ! (The lid alone has a list price of around $300 !)
I then called around for a used one but was unablre to locate. Several places had them but with corrosion damage. (I already have one of those). Anyway, my Plan B is to meet with an aircraft sheet metal man tomorrow. ( A very skilled and experienced guy) He'll either try to repair my old one or build a new one. Stay tuned...
Rudy