Engine Overhauls

[170C]

A new friend of mine here in Murfreesboro asked me the other day if I knew anything about Heart of Texas Aircraft in Brady, TX. I had to admit I wasn't familiar with them, but he was telling me they would overhaul a C-145/O-300 for about $14k. I checked the internet and read some of their advertising data. If I remember correctly they talk about replacing vrs items with "certified" parts. I may be wrong, but a certified part could be a used part that just meets the minimum dimensions so it could be a long way from "new". Am I correct? My friend said they had a two year or 400 hour (I think) warranty, but I didn't see or read their warranty. I am just wondering if anyone has done business with or knows anyone that has done so with this business. I want to provide some input to this friend who has an O-300A. George/Richard/ others---what do you know of these folks?

Frank
Murfreesboro, TN

[T. C. Downey]

A certified part will be any part that has proper documentation. ECM new cylinders/parts are certified parts, as are all Superior replacement parts, they have what is known as PMA, or Parts Manufacturing authority, IOWs the FAA has blessed them. any used part bought should come with a 8130-3 sheet with it telling the condition, or what was done at the CRS as a repair.

[hilltop170]

We keep the DC-3 in Brady but I have never heard of this shop. That doesn't mean anything though, I haven't met many folks there and we usually are in a hurry to get in or out.

[voorheesh]

If they are overhauling an engine, they have to accomplish the work in accordance with accepted technical data, methods, and practices. The engine (and component parts) have to be tested and meet the same standards. (43.2). Using new parts manufactured under a PMA should meet that criteria. Used parts can also meet overhaul criteria based on dimensions and testing. A part such as a crankshaft or engine case can be overhauled (more than one time) and after more time in service, it eventually wears out and can no longer be returned to overhaul specs. There are also serviceable parts that may not meet overhaul specs but remain airworthy. An engine can be disassembled, inspected, and repaired as necessary (IRAN) and then returned to service without overhaul. In that case its time since overhaul is carried forward. The maintenance records are really important in determining the status of component parts. Would you buy a used crankshaft or case without some traceability? It may meet manufacturer overhaul specs but how many hours in service? Where has it been? If the overhaul shop is legitimate, it may not matter, and it is not unusual to see parts with "origin/time in service unknown" but still listed as overhauled. Just something to consider.

If this facility is a certificated repair station, they would have the engine listed in their authorizations and would have some FAA oversight. I would see if they provide some customers as a reference for their work. If they have been around for awhile, they should have earned a reputation.

[N2625U]

Their web site. They advertise the O300 at $13500 for overhaul. they charge $500 for removal and installation according to their web site anyway.
http://www.heartoftexasaircraftengines.com/

[voorheesh]

This shop might be a fine overhaul facility, but I would be really careful here. I don't think they are a repair station or at least they don't advertise that. This is not necessarily a big deal. The FAA has made it very difficult for small facilities to maintain repair station certification due to complex regulations but I would find out how they meet manufacturer overhaul criteria and verify that, if possible. A rated mechanic can overhaul an engine, but most send the major parts out to reputable facilities and then assemble and test the engine. This company implies they do their own machining. I would check that out to make sure they have the equipment, training, and quality control. They mention "crack repair" on cases. How? If they weld, what certs do they have? They mention new cylinders for O-200 and O-300. Which brand? They don't include mags, carb, starter, etc. If a case or a crank gets rejected, what's the back up plan? The advertising almost suggests that won't happen. Be careful. These guys may be really good, so please don't take my comments as negative. Research.

[flyboy122]

Double check the fine print. I looked into them last year on a Lycoming for a Cardinal I was thinking of buying. I seem to recall that the advertised price was "minimum", and that your engine may need more. If that's the case, it most certainly will. Both Lycoming and Continental publish an "overhaul parts list", which is basically what must be replaced in order for it to be called an overhaul. More often than not you'll need more than what's on this list. For example, cams aren't on the list but corrosion on Lycoming cams is really common. Be prepared to buck up $1500 for a new cam and lifters. Chances are you'll need to grind the crank, that's another $500. You might not have to rubush the rockers, but are you going to replace everything else and not that? Etc.... Most shops take this into account and price accordingly up front.

I'm not saying they aren't a good shop. I have no clue. And is their pricing any more dishonest than a factory reman that throws away plenty of perfectly good parts and charges you full list to replace them? It is possible to do an engine that cheap if the stars align, afterall. Just know that it's a long shot, and budget accordingly.

DEM

[T. C. Downey]

Double check the fine print. I looked into them last year on a Lycoming for a Cardinal I was thinking of buying. I seem to recall that the advertised price was "minimum", and that your engine may need more. If that's the case, it most certainly will. Both Lycoming and Continental publish an "overhaul parts list", which is basically what must be replaced in order for it to be called an overhaul. More often than not you'll need more than what's on this list. For example, cams aren't on the list but corrosion on Lycoming cams is really common. Be prepared to buck up $1500 for a new cam and lifters. Chances are you'll need to grind the crank, that's another $500. You might not have to rubush the rockers, but are you going to replace everything else and not that? Etc.... Most shops take this into account and price accordingly up front.

I'm not saying they aren't a good shop. I have no clue. And is their pricing any more dishonest than a factory reman that throws away plenty of perfectly good parts and charges you full list to replace them? It is possible to do an engine that cheap if the stars align, afterall. Just know that it's a long shot, and budget accordingly.

DEM

A couple misconceptions:
there is no mandatory parts replacement list that is required on a 0-300/C-145-A that list is a SB and SBs are not required to be complied with IAW the Overhaul manual. I'm not saying they shouldn't be, just saying they are not required.

The last crank I had reworked the total price was $1800 and change. prop flange replayed, journals ground, polished, counter weights bushings re-fitted, and ultra sound inspected.

When you have good cores the engine overhaul should be around $14k. FAR 43.2 does not say the engine accessories must be overhauled, My guidance from FSDO is, If it is an appliance, it is not an engine.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Tom, we have been through this before and I don't want to open the can of worms again. But some engine manufactures like Lycoming, include in their overhaul manual words to the effect that all SBs must be complied with. In which case SBs do need to be complied with and that has stood in legal precedent during violations proceedings.

Continental does not, in the smaller engine overhaul manuals I'm aware of, have words to the same effect as Lycoming. However it has been reasoned that since Continental has taken to updating their overhaul manuals through the SB process that in effect SBs are mandatory. I don't think that reasoning has been tested and I wouldn't want to be the test case.

[T. C. Downey]

Continental does not, in the smaller engine overhaul manuals I'm aware of, have words to the same effect as Lycoming. However it has been reasoned that since Continental has taken to updating their overhaul manuals through the SB process that in effect SBs are mandatory. I don't think that reasoning has been tested and I wouldn't want to be the test case.

they no longer support the 0-300 so they do not update their manuals on it.

I did not mention Lycoming simply because I don't do them.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

they no longer support the 0-300 so they do not update their manuals on it.

Or maybe they update their manual through service bulletins. For instance there is SIL99-2C 09/16/2014 CURRENT LISTING OF SEALANTS, LUBRICANTS & ADHESIVES AUTHORIZED BY TCM and SB96-7C 02/09/2005 TORQUE LIMITS and a few others that could apply. And that is why like Lycoming, it is not so far fetched to think they could and would be considered mandatory.

[T. C. Downey]

they no longer support the 0-300 so they do not update their manuals on it.

Or maybe they update their manual through service bulletins. For instance there is SIL99-2C 09/16/2014 CURRENT LISTING OF SEALANTS, LUBRICANTS & ADHESIVES AUTHORIZED BY TCM and SB96-7C 02/09/2005 TORQUE LIMITS and a few others that could apply. And that is why like Lycoming, it is not so far fetched to think they could and would be considered mandatory.

Do you realize it is legal to not use the overhaul manual? for example the factory does not, they have their own in house practices, as do many of the larger overhaul shops. Plus when you use after market parts those have their own instructions.

[KS170A]

Maybe it's just me, but looking at their web site does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the cost. Any shop that wants to remain in business and be profitable shouldn't guarantee a blanket price for any and all engine overhauls. There are just too many variables. If I were considering this shop (any shop, really), I would consider this a "minimum" cost. What about the crankshaft? Oil pan corrosion? Nice of them to cover replacement cost of up to half of cylinder "cores." Note they didn't say "cylinders" if your cores cannot be returned to service.

Perhaps they do great work...I have no idea, never heard of them 'til now. But I would not bite thinking my engine overhaul is going to be a guaranteed $13,500. If I were interested in them, I'd find out what a reasonable worst-case scenario price would be, although I guess that may be a challenge to come up with, too (again, so many variables).

[GAHorn]

While I do not know these folks... they are very explicit on what their services cover. See this link in their webpage:
http://www.heartoftexasaircraftengines. ... s_ZD3A.php

While that page describes what they will do for the money.... an owner should notice that certain things are NOT included (which is common in this business, but nonetheless will end up creating a "surprise" when the invoice is totaled-up.)
It does not include:
1. Flammable-fluid hoses (such as gascolator to carburetor, and primer and oil pressure indicating lines.)
2. Carburetor rebuild/repair/overhaul (something all "real" overhauls should include.)
3. Magnetos (they DO state they will install new ignition harnesses but omit any mention of magnetos and impulse couplings.)
4. Motor Mount repairs/replacements (Dynofocal) and including rubber shockmounts.
5. Alternator/Generator units
6. Vacuum Pump (if any)
7. Starter (the TCM starter adaptor they mention does not include the ones used on pull-starters, only those used in O-300-D engines. This would not apply to STC'd replacement starters either.)

The items mentioned above can easily add another $2K to an overhaul, and if your crankshaft fails inspection that may be another few grand. I don't see their advertisement as being misleading, but I do think many owners might not have considered the above items when making comparisons to other shops. It will be necessary to be careful when comparison shopping.

Their comment about covering "up to half" of certain components likely means their pricing expects that approximately half of all those items will fail to meet "core charge" requirements, yet they will not make any addt'l charge for those items. Confirm this with them when you call.

Brady is not far from my home. Maybe it'd be a good place for one of our monthly Texas Fly-Ins.

[hilltop170]

Brady is not far from my home. Maybe it'd be a good place for one of our monthly Texas Fly-Ins.

Not a bad idea George! I could also give everyone a tour of the DC-3 which is hangared there. There are a couple of decent restaurants in Brady too. Don't know if the engine shop is open on Saturdays.