Approved Flight Manual

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 6:54 pm

I see that the 170 TCDS is available in the "members only" area of our website. I would like to see the Approved Flight Manual available there also. The AFM is the operating limitations that you must have a copy of on board the airplane --the "O" in A-R-R-O-W. I wonder how many of our members are flying around without this legally-required document.
Webmaster or moderator--help?

Eric

DHeal · Post by **DHeal** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:18 pm

Is, in fact, an AFM required in the C-170?? I recall that for that vintage aircraft, all you need on board is the Equipment List / W & B and the required markings / placards / etc. -- David

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:24 pm

As far as I can see, what is required is the "operating limitations"as well as the airworthiness certificate,registration,and W&B. The other R,radio license,isn't required except for international flights,as I understand it.
The operating limitations are all listed on the AFM,except for the actual CG graph which is shown only on the TCDS. The CG limit variations are spelled out in text on the AFM,so I guess that's good enough.
The fact that there is an AFM indicates to me that it is in fact required,otr at least a good idea to have,cuz the limitations are all there in one place. It's only one double-sided page,so it doesn't eat up much useful load.

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:16 pm

"Vintage Aircraft"???? Where does one find "requirements" than apply universally to a group of airplanes known as "vintage aircraft"...?? (gentle sarcasm, there.)

Everyone: Read your TCDS. See the section titled "Required Equipment"? Notice that item 402(a) is required to be on board the airplane. Notice that at the end of the document item 402(a) is identified as an "Approved Flight Manual".
(In the case of the 170, the AFM is a two-sided one-page document available from Cessna for $25 or from Velvet at TIC170A headquarters, if you are a TIC170A member, for $1, or from the old website by downloading (if you were a former member of that website.)

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 4:08 pm

George,I checked the old yahoo site,found the AFM's in the photo files. Those are photo's of the documents,and after downloading,I found that they are not readable.At least with my computer skills,they need to be bigger. Is there not a way to put them on this site as text,like the TCDS?
I know I could get one from Velvet,but would like to see the AFM's available online. I do have one for my airplane--in fact,the picture of the 1948 AFM is of mine! I seem to remember mailing a xerox copy of it to someone,maybe you,quite a while back. But maybe some other members don't have one for themselves. And mine is kinda raggedy.

Eric

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:13 am

Yes, Eric, it was indeed you who kindly provided that copy to me for publishing on the old yahoo site. (Thanks again!)
And you are also correct, that a download of it is not crispy-clear (although will keep one legal).
If a crispy-clear document is required only an original from Cessna will do. If an almost clear photocopy is satisfactory, then one from Headquarters will suffice.
There seems to be no way to adequately/clearly transmit a photocopy over the I-net.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:45 pm

gahorn wrote: There seems to be no way to adequately/clearly transmit a photocopy over the I-net.

George, this statment is not true. If you can scan a document and print it on your computer clearly then it can be transmitted over the internet. Scans must be done at a high enough resolution which is dependent on your printer. The problem is that the higher the resolution, the larger the file gets. Large files take longer to transmit. It is a trade off. Also if you can't make a good copy with a copy machine your scan probably will not be satisfactory. How ever with some time and skill most documents can be made usable. George I think you may already know this based on our emails along time ago about Adobe acrobat. I have all the tools, software, skill and time required to make PDFs. If some one would send me a good clear copy I'd be happy to provide it to the Association in PDF form. Email me privately for my address.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:44 pm

Ditto Bruce's comments. The TCDS and Flypaper issues available online in the members only area are in Acrobat.They look great. Can someone do this for the AFM as well? I posted a topic in the member issues forum which Dale (the webmaster) resoponded to,but he didn't know what "approved flight manual" I was referring to. That kinda reinforces what I think is a need to have it available online,in my opinion.

Eric

Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:55 pm

Eric I did just volunteer to do this if i can get a clean copy of an AFM. I'm not sure if there is a different AFM for the later models but if you could send me a copy of yours we can start there. I'll send you my address privately.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:50 pm

N9149A wrote:
gahorn wrote: There seems to be no way to adequately/clearly transmit a photocopy over the I-net.
George, this statment is not true. If you can scan a document and print it on your computer clearly then it can be transmitted over the internet. Scans must be done at a high enough resolution which is dependent on your printer. The problem is that the higher the resolution, the larger the file gets. Large files take longer to transmit. It is a trade off. Also if you can't make a good copy with a copy machine your scan probably will not be satisfactory. How ever with some time and skill most documents can be made usable. George I think you may already know this based on our emails along time ago about Adobe acrobat. I have all the tools, software, skill and time required to make PDFs. If some one would send me a good clear copy I'd be happy to provide it to the Association in PDF form. Email me privately for my address.

Well, Bruce, ...what I did was "cut to the chase". The statement I made was true ... in proper context ... mainly in that it would take equipment, software and file sizes not available to me currently. In any case, there are no copies in my possession that are clear/crisp enough to offer over the Internet. Trust me.

If you want an original, official, crisp document... you'll probably have to get one from Cessna. A photocopy is available from Headquarters to members for $1. (Think of the $24 saved as reducing the cost of membership to only $11.)

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:14 pm

gahorn wrote:Well, Bruce, ...what I did was "cut to the chase".

George, I figured as much. I'm taking on the challenge to get this done. Can you tell me if there are indeed different AFMs for the different year/model aircraft. My search for usable copies is on.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Apr 01, 2003 9:27 pm

AFM's were originally issued specific to each Registration Number aircraft, but there are actually only three documents, each listed by each model. 170/170A/170B
(Russ's signature is "All glory is fleeting". I may make mine "Read the type certificate!")

Under required equipment - -
"Item 402(a) - FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual and pertinent revisions applicable to the particular model, serial number, and landing gear installation."

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 1:58 am

Well I have collected six different versions of the AFM. Four of them where on the old yahoo site. I don't know how I did it but at one time I was able to print these out at full size a feat I can't duplicate today. One of them is a copy from my own aircraft and another from a friends. Here is the run down with some observations and questions I hope you all out there is 170 land can help answer

The oldest AFM I have is from Eric (his AFM is also on Yahoo). It is dated Feb. 12, 1948 and is marked "Tentative" after the approval at the top and is for Erics '48.

The second AFM is the second issued by Cessna for my friends '49 A model. It is dated Feb. 13, 1948 and is a different format and info than Erics which makes sense could of the differences in the plane.

The third AFM is the origianl issued to my friends '49 but it is a completely different format and is dated Dec 3, 1948 which is newer that the second AFM issued by Cessna for this plane.

The fourth AFM is from my '50 A model. It is dated Dec 3, 1948 same as the third AFM but is the same format as the second AFM with a different date.

The fifth AFM I have is from N1263D for an A model which I got from the yahoo site. It is dated Dec 3, 1948 it is very similiar to the fourth AFM with the same date but is different in that it uses a different typeface.

The sixth AFM is from the yahoo site for a B model. It is dated June 16, 1950. Of course this AFM is different than the older versions cause it's for a B model with different info for the B. The interesting thing is that this was approved a year and a half before Cessna ever made a B model in '52.

Another observation is that it is appearent from 3 of my samples that the original size of the AFM on at least the early versions was about 5.5 by 8 inches. This would be about the size of the owners manual. Can anyone confirm that that is the size they came?

Also the newer samples (which are on Yahoo) seem to be in a 8.5 by 11 format but they are both cut off at the bottom and there are no signatures from the CAA like the older ones. I'm thinking this is because they were small and someone enlarged them cutting off the signatures.

What I really need for this project is for as many people as possible to go get their AFM regardless of the make and model and send me a copy. All of the AFMs I have are second or third generation copies of a tattered original.

Don't worry if your AFM is not perfect. I might be able to scan and use just a portion of it combined with another of the same version to make a good one for the Association.

If you can send me a copy of your AFM I promise I will not release it to any one with your N number on it as I intend to remove that from the finished form for the association.

I'm getting way ahead of myself but I might be able to provide those that send me a copy of their AFM with clean custom digital form with their original N number as Cessna would have typed it way back when.

If you can help out, email me privatley and I'll send you my address.

Thanks everyone

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 3:10 am

I have two different AFM's for my ragwing. The one I sent Bruce a copy of sez "CAA Approved (tentative),approval basis CAR 03, Feb 12,1948,normal & utility category" & is signed by Wm. H. Weeks-Supt,aircraft & components branch,CAA, no signature date.
The other one,which looks more like it could be the original &/or official AFM,measures 6" by 8-1/2". It sez "CAA Approved ,Approval Basis CAR 03,Feb 12,1948,normal & utility category" and is signed by Charles F. Dycer-Director,Aircraft & components service,CAA, signature date July 12,1948.
The latter AFM,though more official looking,is torn,written on with felt-tip marker,and is otherwise pretty bedraggled.
They both have the same information in pretty much the same format.

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 3:48 am

The simplest way to get a correct AFM for your airplane is to send Velvet $1 and wait for the mail to bring you one.