non pickeled engine sitting 12+ years, what to do

[sanships]

I'm looking at a 1956 172 with 4700tt and 1200soh located in the Philippines and it has not flown since 1997 for an annual but last flown regularly in 1991. There is no compression on the cylinders(which were remans already when it was installed in 1997) and the owner wants to sell it as is where is and not to be touched until paid for.

My mechanic wants to split the case to inspect everything before running it to avoid clogged oil passages due to time sitting. Similar to a prop strike inspection.

The old threads kinda says just soak everything in oil then run it and observe the filter/screen for rust and debris before taking any drastic action. Is this a consensus or is my mechanic just paranoid( he does not trust the other mechanics that worked on it before if all was documented correctly).

The plane looks straight and needs interoir, paint and avionics. Price seems to be in line with it's condition but not knowing the engine's status really scares me. After what I've been through with my 170 having to change the crank and all new exhaust system. Need advice.

[voorheesh]

I agree with your mechanic. There is a high likelihood you have rust/corrosion and other problems if the engine was not preserved since the last time it was used. If it is 1200 hrs smoh, you should consider overhauling it and figure that into how much you will pay for the airplane. Good luck.

[GAHorn]

Alvin, your mechanic is looking out for both you and himself. Unless he is allowed to inspect the engine, he cannot tell you it's condition.
Soaking the engine and then running it actually puts that engine at risk. It can do serious damage to an engine that has internal rust/corrosion (like one sitting in the humid Phillipines is likely to have)...damage that might be alleviated should the rusted parts be disassembled and corrected before any attempt to run it.

Yes, you might get lucky...but consider this: If you can find a mechanic willing to "soak it and run it",...and if it runs.... will you still be willing to trust that engine in flight? I doubt it.

If it runs, will you have any idea of the necessary costs to bring that engine up to airworthiness? Nope.

The manufacturer of that engine holds the engine to be in need of complete overhaul or replacement due to it's present condition. You, on the other hand, are hoping things are different...and you are wanting your mechanic to agree with you. Your mechanic is smarter than that.

If you are interested in owning that airplane you should price it according to the engine mfr's data.....the engine is junk. The only way you can realistically give the seller any more money for it than for a failed engine...is for him to allow your mechanic to inspect it as he wishes.

Any seller that will not allow a potential buyer to fully inspect the airplane for condition.... probably knows that an inspection will reveal the worthless condition the airplane is in.

That's my opinion.

[jrenwick]

I have some knowledge island airplanes, having bought and flown my J3 in Hawaii many years ago. The focus of this thread has been on the engine, but don't neglect the airframe either. Does it have any kind of internal protection against corrosion? If you're not allowed to look, you should assume 1) it has been tied down near the ocean, and 2) the airframe has internal corrosion that you don't even want to think about fixing. Anywhere there is unprotected aluminum, or where aluminum is in contact with steel, you can expect to find corrosion to the point that there is no structure left. This can be true even if the exterior looks OK. I say this from personal experience.

If the documentation convinces you beyond a doubt that the airframe has been stored in clean, dry , indoor, inland conditions for the last 20 years, the airframe might be OK; if there's any evidence to the contrary, why even bother?

[hilltop170]

What you intend to do with the airplane and your motivation in buying it have as much to do with its value to you and how much you are willing to spend on it as its actual condition.

If it has sentimental value you might be comfortable over-spending to restore it. If you are trying to fix it up to make a profit, that might be a little more difficult. Will you ship it back to the USA or fly it in the Philippines? Shipping could make it uneconomical.

If it is in rough shape and you intend to restore it to good shape, even if the seller was to GIVE you the airplane for nothing it is likely you will be upside down with its value being much less than you have in it by the time it is restored properly. You can reduce the risk by doing as much of the work yourself as you can or are able, but the cost of parts alone today makes it very difficult to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear without spending more than it's worth.

In any case it sounds like an ambitious project. Good luck on whatever you decide to do with it.

[sanships]

Guys, the plane has been through general inspection by our mechanic and he says that the airframe seems ok and should only require minor repairs. It has been painted internally and seems clean for it's age. It has been stored in a hangar for the past 10 years.

The only thing that we have not really looked at is the engine since the owner does not want to start it. As I said, it has no compression but it freely and smoothly rotates when spun. No battery too so no way knowing if electrical system is functional.

The idea is to get it running for local tour operation. The mechanic will split the case and get all internals inspected and NDT'd. If it all passes, then we will just continue with the time at 1200SMOH. If not, then we're out of luck and will just go ahead and major it.

The price is $10k as is where is. Labor is cheap here so I expect to have it painted, interior redone, electrical rewired for about $5k. The goal is not to exceed $30k so hopefully the engine will not cost more than $15k to major in the worse case scenario. Will find out about the instrument condition when we start flying since it uses venturis also.

Hopefully you guy won't mind me asking about older 172's here since it is fairly similar to my 170. Which by the way will be airworthy by end of this month if all tests go well. It has taken more than 3-1/2 years to get it flying again and more than $40K to restore. I will send pictures when I'm done. Knowing what I know now, the 172 should be a lot easier project to tackle. Wish me luck guys!

[GAHorn]

Alvin, the airplane being stored in a hangar is good news. The plan to use it for a local tour operation might need more scrutiny.
If the rules in the Philippines is anything like the U.S., you may be getting into a commercial operation. This usually requires that all components be maintained, documented, in accordance with manufacturer's instructions and times. Since TCM says the engine must be overhauled every 1800 hours and/or 12 years (whichever comes first) you might be looking at a rebuild anyway. Just a thought for you to look into.

If the plan is to buy it anyway, (and if it's not a commercial operation) you might not need to completely split the case. Removing the cylinders may tell you all you need to know. The lack of compression is almost assuredly due to valves which are stuck open. Unfortunately, if the engine has been rotated, ... this might be due to bent pushrods and/or damaged lifters and cam. (One of the hazards of "soaking and running" attempts.)

Perhaps your seller might allow the removal of cylinders, since they clearly must come off anyway to repair the "no compressions".

[hilltop170]

Alvin-
For your information;

I just had the O-300-D on my 170 overhauled. Parts alone ran $17,740. Freight to/from Alaska was $874. Outside labor/inspections was $2371. Overhauler's labor $4250. Total $25,236

[blueldr]

That has got to be the most expensive O-300 overhaul I've ever heard of.
What in hell did they save from the old engine? Maybe the data plate?

[hilltop170]

BL-
It was last overhauled in 1968 and was pretty well worn out at 1750 hours SMOH. The crankshaft was cracked and it had not been flown in two years but it started up on the third blade and ran smooth as glass for the twenty minute ferry permit flight to the repair station. I flushed the fuel system and changed the oil before the flight. Nothing unusual was found.

I told the overhauler not to use any questionable parts. Just about everything was replaced with new or yellow-tagged used except case halves, cam, rods, mags, and data plate. That total did not include vac pump, alternator, new baffles, exhaust, motor mount work, or starter. It adds up quick. I could have poor-boy'd it but I wanted it done right.

Now that it's paid for, it hardly hurts at all any more. And it sure does run good.

[blueldr]

Richard,

Are you at all comfortable sitting behind that expensive engine?

If it was me, my butt would be far too tender to be sitting anywhere.

[Bill Hart]

In doing research for a shop to overhaul my O-300 I was dismayed to get quotes of $23,000.00 and $21, 00.00. I looked in Trade-A-Plane and found shops whose ads were for 10.5 and 10. When I asked the shops who quoted me 23 and 21 why they were so much higher they said that their overhauls were to “new” limits and they couldn’t even get the parts for 10.5.

OK this sounds fair to me so I got written quotes from these other shops to see what kind of overhauls they did “new” limits vs. “serviceable” limits and they came back with the same 100% replaceable parts list that TCM recommends and a “new” limits quote. I was having a problem with why I was told that this one shop, which is doing the work for the AOPA give away, couldn’t get the parts for less than 10.5. When I questioned them I was shocked at what I was told and I too believed that there is no way a shop can do a “new” limits overhaul for 10.5 until I started shopping for parts. I was quoted from the over hauler $1500 to have the case yellow tagged. My price from DIVCO is less than 800. I was told “the oil pump for that engine runs $4000.00” My price was less and 500.

My guess as to why the astronomical mark up is for liability reasons. I am sure the small shops carry less insurance, if any at all, than the larger shops do but does that make their quality substandard? Personally I don’t think so. My thought process is first I want to verify to the best of my ability the quality of the work performed by the shop. The only way I know how to do this is to ask people who have used that shop in the past if they would recommend them and how long has the shop been in operation. I am not sure that I would want my engine overhauled by a shop that has no history. After that get everything in writing make sure you understand just what work will be performed and lastly what is the turn time.

My point to this is just because an overhaul doesn’t cost 25, 30, or 35 thousand mean that you are getting sub-quality work. But you’d better have done your home work and make sure you are getting what you want i.e. “service’ vs. “new” limits.

[hilltop170]

BL-
Time will tell if it was a good investment. It is still much less than converting to an IO-360 Continental or O-360 Lycoming. Overhauls on those aren't cheap these days either.

As Bill Hart states, there is a wide range of cost on parts. I did some of the parts hunting for my O-300 overhaul in parallel with the overhauler thinking I could save some money. He consistently found lower prices than I did, and he did not charge any mark-up on the parts. Whatever he paid, he charged me, I have the receipts and that's what he put on his invoice. The oil pump gears for instance listed at $3698 and I paid $2218 for new. The crankcase went to Nickerson and was $950 for the yellow tag. Nothing was out of line. It just adds up in a hurry.

There are some parts that are just not available new anymore. That's the main reason I made sure it was as close to new/zero timed as possible on this overhaul. Who knows what parts availability will be in a few years. Hopefully this overhaul will last as long as I want to fly the 170.

I don't see how any shop can quote $10,500 for parts if they do a real "zero-time" overhaul (George- I know it's not a true zero-time, but it's as close as we can get these days) unless they are only quoting consumables such as bearings, rings, gaskets, mags, etc. When it is torn down and inspected there will always be the unexpected problems. That's where things start to add up.

I know I could have gotten a cheaper overhaul. I did not want a cheap overhaul, I wanted as near zero-time as possible. The overhauler told me he didn't even want to do another O-300 because of the hard time finding parts and the cost of them today. Before he agreed to do the work he told me it would probably cost upwards of $25,000 as he had just done another one and that's what it ran.

In the end I think it will be money well spent.

[N3243A]

Richard your price does not seem that out of line. I just had mine done last summer to new limits. My total fly away price including removal/installation was just over $22,000. Got to re-use my cases, cam and the crank was ground -10 by ECI. Your having to pay $2218 for new oil pump gears has me a little concerned though. My oil pump gear kit was was only $575. Don't know if that was an "old" price and my overhauler just charged me an "old" price because he had them in stock or what.... Like you, my overhauler just passed along his cost on many parts and all ECI machining services at his cost knowing that he has to keep the price halfway tolerable. Here is a breakdown of my overhual pricing.

ENGINE OVERHAUL ACTUAL
PART DESCRIPTION PRICE
New Sky-Tec starter at dealer Price $525.00
Wiring Harness+spark plgs only $562.00
Overhauled existing 20A generator $283.00
Powder coat valve cover $51.00
Carburator Factory rebuilt with Exchange $850.00
6 New ECI Titan Cylinders, $850 ea. $5,070.00
ECI Crankcase machining and certification $818.00
ECI Crankshaft machining and cert. $1,380.00
ECI Camshaft regrind and cert. $179.00
ECI lifter body regind an cert. $168.00
New Oil Pump Kit $575.00
Return shipping on old red tagged sump $30.00
Hardware CAD plating $128.00
Lord Mount Bushing $144.00
All Engine Overhaul Labor and Inspection $2,643.00
Used Yellow Tagged Oil Sump from Drake $780.00
Used Yellow Tagged Crankshaft Gear $550.00
Major Overhual Gasket Set $173.00
New Bearing Sets, M10, Superior Air Parts $488.00
New Connecting Rod Bolts, Nuts, Bushing $260.00
New Piston Pins $219.00
New Pushrods P30, P70 $565.00
New Lifter Hydraulic Units, 12 ea. $647.00
New Oil screen, New Intake tubes $260.00
Misc. hardware/shipping charges $360.00
3% Mtls and Supplies? $521.00

Engine Overhaul price only $18,229.00


ENGINE REMOVAL AND REPLACEMENT by MLJ

Misc scat tubing and hardware $185.00
Brand New Exhaust cans 2 ea. $1,000.00
Engine Mount welding and cert by Atlee Dodge $500.00
Labor alone for removal and replacement $2,125.00
3% Mtls Fee on Labor $64.00

Total for engine R&R $3,874.00

Grand Total - Fly away Price $22,103.00

Breakdown of the Total of $22,103
Total New Engine Parts or Yellow Tagged and Recertified Used Parts and Accessories $14,205.00
Total Crankcase, Crankshaft, Camshaft and Lifter Body Machining Services by ECI $2,545.00
Total Labor and Inspection Services by 2 separate A&P IA's, inluding 3% materials fee $5,353.00

Bruce, '53 170B

[hilltop170]

Bruce-
So that was your polished and red 170 sitting out in front of Mike's hangar.
Who did the overhaul?
How long did it take?
How does the engine run?
How many hours now?

My old crank was cracked so I had to get a new one, that was almost $4000 right there.