I've read a couple of articles that discuss the value of a used airplane and the starting point is the average price of an average aircraft of the same model and year. They use this as a basis for adding or subtracting worth based on more or less hours on the engine and airframe, the amount of avionics and the condition of the interior and exterior etc.
The article states that this information can be obtained through AOPA or EAA. I am not a member of either one, as I do not own a plane YET! If one of you has access to this information, would you be able to tell me the "average" price of a 1951 170A and a 52 or 54 170B.
Also, if anyone is willing to share their experience or opinion of the "average" price that I guy should pay for these planes, I would appreciate the extra input. I very much acknowledge that it is tough to say what "average" is but again the appraisal system has established one based on certain criteria, right or wrong!
Thanks, Greg
Average Purchase Price
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
I have no idea about an average.
I paid 35K for my ragwing '48 with new overhaul (25hours), new fabric, new interior, new instruments - basically new everything.
AOPA/EAA memberships are great and they basically pay for themselves - I get a 5% discount on insurance so between the 2 airplanes I save well more than my membership cost.
T.
I paid 35K for my ragwing '48 with new overhaul (25hours), new fabric, new interior, new instruments - basically new everything.
AOPA/EAA memberships are great and they basically pay for themselves - I get a 5% discount on insurance so between the 2 airplanes I save well more than my membership cost.
T.
Thomas Short
1948 C170 N3949V
RV-8 wings in progress
Indianapolis (KUMP)
1948 C170 N3949V
RV-8 wings in progress
Indianapolis (KUMP)
-
Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Hi Greg.
The time to join these organizations and TIC170A is BEFORE you buy and aircraft. That way you can use there services BEFORE you pay to much for something you might not want.
I sure like to help folks out but it's kind of funny having paid my dues and joining these organizations so I can use their services for someone who hasn't. Why didn't I think to ask a member then I wouldn't have to join.
Of course our forum is a little different in that most of the services TIC170A provides here at the forum are free. We the membership benefit from the experience of non-members and non-members benefit and a lot end up joining to support the cause.
Since I'm kind of intreged by your question I'll look at AOPA's vref and see what an average '52 170 might fetch.
Model Base Retail Serial No.
170B $34,000.00 20267-25372
Airframe Total Time and Engine Time Since Major Overhaul:
AFTT: 3780.
Basic Equipment: SGL NAVCOM, 900 SMOH, 7 P&I, CONDITION AND RESTORATION QUALITY DETERMINE VALUE.
So there you have it. Generally a '48 fetches the least with the A model next. Early B models should probably sell a few dollars less that later B models depending on who you are, what type of flying and where in the country your plan to fly the airplane. Later B models have improved heat systems but I like the '52 and earlier cowl better.
BTW this is just basic info from the AOPA vref software. There are a 100 different options that could be plugged in to sway the price and there is some knowledge that can be gleaned about each aircraft such as operating costs and so forth.
I would suggest as a future owner you join AOPA first so you can use their services. Then if you like what we do here specially if you are going to buy a 170, join TIC170A and help us help others.
The time to join these organizations and TIC170A is BEFORE you buy and aircraft. That way you can use there services BEFORE you pay to much for something you might not want.
I sure like to help folks out but it's kind of funny having paid my dues and joining these organizations so I can use their services for someone who hasn't. Why didn't I think to ask a member then I wouldn't have to join.
Of course our forum is a little different in that most of the services TIC170A provides here at the forum are free. We the membership benefit from the experience of non-members and non-members benefit and a lot end up joining to support the cause.
Since I'm kind of intreged by your question I'll look at AOPA's vref and see what an average '52 170 might fetch.
Model Base Retail Serial No.
170B $34,000.00 20267-25372
Airframe Total Time and Engine Time Since Major Overhaul:
AFTT: 3780.
Basic Equipment: SGL NAVCOM, 900 SMOH, 7 P&I, CONDITION AND RESTORATION QUALITY DETERMINE VALUE.
So there you have it. Generally a '48 fetches the least with the A model next. Early B models should probably sell a few dollars less that later B models depending on who you are, what type of flying and where in the country your plan to fly the airplane. Later B models have improved heat systems but I like the '52 and earlier cowl better.
BTW this is just basic info from the AOPA vref software. There are a 100 different options that could be plugged in to sway the price and there is some knowledge that can be gleaned about each aircraft such as operating costs and so forth.
I would suggest as a future owner you join AOPA first so you can use their services. Then if you like what we do here specially if you are going to buy a 170, join TIC170A and help us help others.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Greg If your in the market for a plane you should probably subscrive to Trade-A-Plane as they have the most complete list of used planes and you can also get a price evaluation on any plane you want. It comes out three times a month but if you elect to get it once a month then you can check in daily on their web site and see what planes were listed that day. Good luck. One other thing that seems to be of general consensus "Buy the best condition plane you can afford as many times the planes which are truly worth the most are the least exspensive in the long run. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
since you are looking for a plane already you probably know this, but besides Trade a Plane (need subsc. for all listings) yu can try controller.com and aso.com, both have as many listings and are free.
lets you get a feel for prices asked. book values are based on average prices of recent transactions, of course asking prices are almost always higher than book or actual final selling prices
so much depends on equipment, and the values given to various equipment items may or may not mean bubkus to you based on your needs so then it it bargaining time
by the way, I got your email about the plane in MN but haven't found anyone that knows anything about it, sorry.
lets you get a feel for prices asked. book values are based on average prices of recent transactions, of course asking prices are almost always higher than book or actual final selling prices
so much depends on equipment, and the values given to various equipment items may or may not mean bubkus to you based on your needs so then it it bargaining time
by the way, I got your email about the plane in MN but haven't found anyone that knows anything about it, sorry.
'56 "C170 and change"
'52 Packard 200
'68 Arctic Cat P12 Panther
"He's a menace to everything in the air. Yes, birds too." - Airplane
'52 Packard 200
'68 Arctic Cat P12 Panther
"He's a menace to everything in the air. Yes, birds too." - Airplane
-
flat country pilot
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:46 pm
-
flat country pilot
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Average Price
It has been my experience that the "average price" is much higher when you are trying to buy an airplane than when you are trying to sell it. There are a limited group of buyers who will be interested in buying 55 year old airplanes with tail wheels, should you ever want to sell one. You should also know that the purchase price has little to do with the cost of keeping these old ships in safe condition. If you are lucky enough to end up with a good one, you soon will realize that the "average price" of a Cessna 170 is priceless!
I think I get the message, "loosen up the purse strings a little and join!" 
Now, does anyone know of any promotional offers? Hey, I said that I would “loosen the purse strings,†not turn it inside out and shake it in the wind!
Thanks for the information and the gentle kick in the pants!
Greg
Now, does anyone know of any promotional offers? Hey, I said that I would “loosen the purse strings,†not turn it inside out and shake it in the wind!
Thanks for the information and the gentle kick in the pants!
Greg
GAD
Greg, one of the things I've come to realize when shopping for airplanes, is.... there is no such thing as an "average" airplane to compare to other "average" airplanes. It's sorta like recommending that when you find two airplanes you're interested in, make certain that you compare apples-to-apples! It's simply not possible because these airplanes are no longer identical at all. There's been too many years, too many alterations, too many life experiences, too many differences.... to make apples-to-apples comparisons.
One could make a life-study of comparing the value of different engines that are installed in 170's....as a subject all to itself! (How was it overhauled, who did it, what parts did they use, did they document each part, were the parts new, used, serviceable, "zero-timed", etc. etc.)
There there's different year models with "improvements" with each year, and then there's avionics differences, then there's damage histories...or not
... you get the picture....
Oh, then there's the "conversion" airplanes with non-original basic equipment such as Lycoming or Continental higher-horsepower engines. (Automatically command $25K+ more money depending on condition and hours.)
When you look at a "blue book" price, you're looking at an airplane with a 6-month old annual with a 900 hour engine. Each engine hour is worth about $10/hr. So a 1,000 hour engine since "overhaul" is worth $1,000 less than a 900 hour engine.... provided that their "overhauls" were comparable. (Was one a "field overhaul to service limits" and the other a "name-brand overhaul to new limits" with a NOS/New crankshaft and new cylinders? The latter might be worth considerably more, even tho' it had several hundred more hours on it than the first engine. See the problem?)
Is one airplane a "parts plane" made up from several wrecks gathered at a salvage yard, and the other a two-owner since new all in the same family airplane, never wrecked? (or has it's wrecks simply not been recorded?)
Is one full of hidden corrosion and the other a pristine restoration.? (But is the latter one a clouded title because it was previously owned by a defunct FBO and subsequently sold by the son of the FBO owner after the owner died? In other words, how do you know the son actually had authority to sign the Bill of Sale for property owned by a company no longer in business?) Were the business assets acquired by a bank and subsequently sold to another institution? Is that institution no longer around and a 30 year old lien not yet released?) Or did someone else buy that plane and hope no one would ever contest it, the title issue is now buried in paperwork, and here you are looking at it? Should you really make an offer? How much should you offer considering the risk? Life can get complicated.
I'm just trying to give you a feel for the complexity of the question. There's no "average" airplane for 1952 models. You are probably not looking at two 1952 models. You are probably interested in a '52 versus a '54 model, and there are so many variables that it's become bewildering.
I'd advise you to buy the model with the most features you find attractive, in the best condition you can find, and see how little the seller will accept for it. (Then get it inspected to confirm it's condition before paying any more than earnest money for it.) Most sellers know the "ball park" their airplane's value is in and are asking slightly more than that value.
Keep in mind that Trade-A-Plane, Vref, etc. is trying to sell advertising space in their periodical. They are hoping to convince a seller they'll get more money for their airplane by advertising in that periodical/classified. It may not be realistic as far as actual value for a particular airframe. (And there's so much subjective judgment when placing value on condition of paint, interior, avionics, which the buyer and/or seller may input into the equation.)
Virtually any 170 of any model, if in airworthy condition and with no structural corrosion is worth $25-$35K and up. (I know a 55 B model that has wonderful paint, nice original interor, owned by the same TCI170A member for 30 years, always hangard, all logs, new engine...and IF it were for sale, would have to bring an offer of $55K to prevent the current owner from being insulted! I know another 55 B model that can be had for $32K but needs cosmetics and has a 30 year old overhaul that runs great....but it'll take $20K to make it like the first one...yet it's original logs are probably in some attic up north somewhere never to be found! How do you make an apples/apples comparison? You don't.) Then start adding for great condition, recent overhauls, newer avionics, all original logs, etc. etc. This means you'll be shopping for those feature you find important. (Bruce thinks the early cowls are great. I think they are problematical. You have to make up your own mind about such things.) Read up on the History of the 170 in the Pilot Lounge and think about whether you really need large flaps or a really useful cabin heater where you live.... do you perhaps like the classic look of fabric wings.... etc etc.
(Tons of personal opinion in this post incase you didn't notice.)
One could make a life-study of comparing the value of different engines that are installed in 170's....as a subject all to itself! (How was it overhauled, who did it, what parts did they use, did they document each part, were the parts new, used, serviceable, "zero-timed", etc. etc.)
There there's different year models with "improvements" with each year, and then there's avionics differences, then there's damage histories...or not
... you get the picture....Oh, then there's the "conversion" airplanes with non-original basic equipment such as Lycoming or Continental higher-horsepower engines. (Automatically command $25K+ more money depending on condition and hours.)
When you look at a "blue book" price, you're looking at an airplane with a 6-month old annual with a 900 hour engine. Each engine hour is worth about $10/hr. So a 1,000 hour engine since "overhaul" is worth $1,000 less than a 900 hour engine.... provided that their "overhauls" were comparable. (Was one a "field overhaul to service limits" and the other a "name-brand overhaul to new limits" with a NOS/New crankshaft and new cylinders? The latter might be worth considerably more, even tho' it had several hundred more hours on it than the first engine. See the problem?)
Is one airplane a "parts plane" made up from several wrecks gathered at a salvage yard, and the other a two-owner since new all in the same family airplane, never wrecked? (or has it's wrecks simply not been recorded?)
Is one full of hidden corrosion and the other a pristine restoration.? (But is the latter one a clouded title because it was previously owned by a defunct FBO and subsequently sold by the son of the FBO owner after the owner died? In other words, how do you know the son actually had authority to sign the Bill of Sale for property owned by a company no longer in business?) Were the business assets acquired by a bank and subsequently sold to another institution? Is that institution no longer around and a 30 year old lien not yet released?) Or did someone else buy that plane and hope no one would ever contest it, the title issue is now buried in paperwork, and here you are looking at it? Should you really make an offer? How much should you offer considering the risk? Life can get complicated.
I'm just trying to give you a feel for the complexity of the question. There's no "average" airplane for 1952 models. You are probably not looking at two 1952 models. You are probably interested in a '52 versus a '54 model, and there are so many variables that it's become bewildering.
I'd advise you to buy the model with the most features you find attractive, in the best condition you can find, and see how little the seller will accept for it. (Then get it inspected to confirm it's condition before paying any more than earnest money for it.) Most sellers know the "ball park" their airplane's value is in and are asking slightly more than that value.
Keep in mind that Trade-A-Plane, Vref, etc. is trying to sell advertising space in their periodical. They are hoping to convince a seller they'll get more money for their airplane by advertising in that periodical/classified. It may not be realistic as far as actual value for a particular airframe. (And there's so much subjective judgment when placing value on condition of paint, interior, avionics, which the buyer and/or seller may input into the equation.)
Virtually any 170 of any model, if in airworthy condition and with no structural corrosion is worth $25-$35K and up. (I know a 55 B model that has wonderful paint, nice original interor, owned by the same TCI170A member for 30 years, always hangard, all logs, new engine...and IF it were for sale, would have to bring an offer of $55K to prevent the current owner from being insulted! I know another 55 B model that can be had for $32K but needs cosmetics and has a 30 year old overhaul that runs great....but it'll take $20K to make it like the first one...yet it's original logs are probably in some attic up north somewhere never to be found! How do you make an apples/apples comparison? You don't.) Then start adding for great condition, recent overhauls, newer avionics, all original logs, etc. etc. This means you'll be shopping for those feature you find important. (Bruce thinks the early cowls are great. I think they are problematical. You have to make up your own mind about such things.) Read up on the History of the 170 in the Pilot Lounge and think about whether you really need large flaps or a really useful cabin heater where you live.... do you perhaps like the classic look of fabric wings.... etc etc.
(Tons of personal opinion in this post incase you didn't notice.)
Last edited by GAHorn on Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
That price doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. If no corrosion or damage history, it would probably bring that or more.gahorn wrote: (I know a 55 B model that has wonderful paint, nice original interor, owned by the same TCI170A member for 30 years, always hangard, all logs, new engine...and IF it were for sale, would have to bring an offer of $55K to prevent the current owner from being insulted!
Craig Helm
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
While looking at Vref I noted that they only allow $5000 for a 180hp upgrade while they allow $10000 for a Garmin 530 installation. 
If you could install a 180 for $5000 over a standard engine rebuild/install, I'd bet there would be a whole lot more conversions being done.
Kind of lets you know that in this case IMHO the AOPA Vref designers don't understand the aircraft. Their opinion of value is slanted towards the geewiz radio most 170 owners would think extreme overkill. Yet they have know idea the value of the added hp the Lycoming 180 delivers and what that means to many 170 owners.
Nothing is perfect is it.
If you could install a 180 for $5000 over a standard engine rebuild/install, I'd bet there would be a whole lot more conversions being done.
Kind of lets you know that in this case IMHO the AOPA Vref designers don't understand the aircraft. Their opinion of value is slanted towards the geewiz radio most 170 owners would think extreme overkill. Yet they have know idea the value of the added hp the Lycoming 180 delivers and what that means to many 170 owners.
Nothing is perfect is it.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
I always use Bluebook, although I get roughly the same numbers with Vref it is clunky to use and doesn't really have many of the options so there is a lot of individual input, which gives everybody a different number to claim as "book value". it might be a little better with small GA aircraft.
but you have to have a subsc to Bluebook so go with what's available
but you have to have a subsc to Bluebook so go with what's available
'56 "C170 and change"
'52 Packard 200
'68 Arctic Cat P12 Panther
"He's a menace to everything in the air. Yes, birds too." - Airplane
'52 Packard 200
'68 Arctic Cat P12 Panther
"He's a menace to everything in the air. Yes, birds too." - Airplane
-
futr_alaskaflyer
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:27 am
If one could find a 170 with the O-360 lycoming upgrade for sale that 1) wasn't in the salvage yard, or 2) doesn't have a run-out engine for less than $50 grand these days, I'll eat my keyboard.N9149A wrote:While looking at Vref I noted that they only allow $5000 for a 180hp upgrade while they allow $10000 for a Garmin 530 installation.
If you could install a 180 for $5000 over a standard engine rebuild/install, I'd bet there would be a whole lot more conversions being done.
Kind of lets you know that in this case IMHO the AOPA Vref designers don't understand the aircraft. Their opinion of value is slanted towards the geewiz radio most 170 owners would think extreme overkill. Yet they have know idea the value of the added hp the Lycoming 180 delivers and what that means to many 170 owners.
Nothing is perfect is it.
Richard
N3477C
'55 B model (Franklin 6A-165-B3 powered, any others out there?)
N3477C
'55 B model (Franklin 6A-165-B3 powered, any others out there?)