Factors when buying a 170

[GAD]

I have read a lot material about buying used airplanes and wonder if some of you can provide some specific aspects to watch for when looking at buying a 170. I would like to avoid the fabric wings and B models seem to be more expensive so I'm focusing on A models at this time. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Greg

[iowa]

i have owned four airplanes
in my lifetime.
i have found that the
absolute best way to find
a good airplane
is by word of mouth through friends.
otherwise, one is at the mercy
of the unknown seller.
of course, i'm sure,
that this would never be
an issue dealing with
you guys on the forum here!
dave

[GAHorn]

i have owned four airplanes
in my lifetime.
i have found that the
absolute best way to find
a good airplane
is by word of mouth through friends.
otherwise, one is at the mercy
of the unknown seller.
of course, i'm sure,
that this would never be
an issue dealing with
you guys on the forum here!
dave

Perhaps you are under the mis-impression that here at the forums we are all friends?

Well, the subject of advice when buying "airplanes" in general.... versus any advice of buying a 170 airplane... have a lot of similarities.

#1 or #2 is clear title.
#2 or #1 is condition!
#3 closely follows in location! (the closer the better).

The problem is how to assure yourself of these issues, and they may be more intertwined than at first apparent.

Title: There are legal services and title services that can assist you in determining the title of record of a particular serial number airframe...and if you can confirm through documentation and inspection that you are actually examining the airframe you think you are buying...then you have cleared the first hurdle.
Don't ever put down money on an airplane unless you have some assurance you can get the money back if things aren't as originally represented in writing. (This means you have to get a seller's written description.) Escrow services are the safest method, but the majority of transactions are conducted without this valuable service.

Condition: Unless you are buying lawn-art, you will need to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft. There is only one inspection that determines an aircraft's airworthiness and it is not called a "pre-buy" or "pre-purchase" inspection. It is called an "annual inspection" and should be performed by a disinterested inspector, hopefully one that has a sizeable business in the type of aircraft in which you are interested. At the very least he should be an active aircraft inspector, and if associated with a Certified Repair Station with deep pockets...even better. (You don't want a buddy, or a friend of a friend, or a yokel no-one knows to perform this important inspection. You want someone who depends on their FAA inspection authority for their livelihood, someone who is successful at the profession, and someone who has a reputation to uphold and liability insurance to cover their oversight, errors, or omissions. This type of facility will also be a comfort to your seller, who will rightfully be concerned about who is working on his airplane.)
In the case of a 170 (or any Cessna for that matter), a genuine Cessna Service Center or dealership would not be overkill, but also is not absolutely necessary. Remember, you are not buying a fresh annual for a seller. You are buying a reliable report of the relative airworthiness of the aircraft in question. AFTER that determination has been made, then final negotiations of price can be completed, and any discrepancies found may be negotiated (or corrected by your inspector should you complete the purchase, and which will win you a fresh sign-off of the annual inspection should you so desire.)
It's important to recognize that you are not intending to pay for any repairs to an airplane you don't yet own. You are merely determining what those repairs might be... in order to determine value and consumate or decline the purchase. Inspections are not usually outrageously priced. A typical single engine, fixed gear inspection only, will cost between $200 and $800 approximately, depending upon the region and the sophistication of the inspection facility. (A Cessna Service Center will likely be at the high end, while a small-town shop that allows you to participate will be at the low end. Don't scrimp or shop too heavily for price on this inspection. Even the high-end is a bargain considering a buyer's overall risks, both financial and otherwise.)

Should your seller and you decide that you cannot reach agreement on the transaction, then the inspection fee was cheap insurance. And the list of descrepancies belong to YOU, and the logbook entry that goes with the seller's airplane that says his airplane does not meet the rule for return to service and that discrepancies exist....belong to HIM. This should provide a powerful tool to encourage him to correct the aircraft condition to that which was originally represented to you.

A few fine points regarding this matter is offered:
1-Your offer to buy at the agreed price is predicated upon the aircraft being as originally represented (of which you both have a written copy.)

2-Any discrepancies that the inspection uncovers shall be negotiated seperately.

3-Any failure of the aircraft to meet it's description releases you from obligation and returns your deposit with the escrow service to you.

4-The inspection is at your choice of facility and at your expense, except that the seller will transport the aircraft to the facility at his expense, such expenses to be mutually agreed prior to inspection. You agree that should it meet it's original written description, to buy the aircraft at the agreed price and reimburse the seller for the fuel of transporting it to the inspector...but that you owe the seller nothing and you have no further obligation should the aircraft not be as originally represented.

5-Should the transaction not be completed, the seller may have a written copy of the discrepancies only if he reimburses you for your inspection costs, at which time you will promise not reveal the list of discrepancies to any other person or agency.
(Ordinarily an inspector is required by FARs to make a log entry that the aircraft has been inspected in accordance with an annual inspection, and that a list of discrepancies has been given to the owner. But in this case the inspector is working for YOU, and should give the discrepancies only to you, with the understanding that you will forward them to the owner.) (The owner will easily recognize the discredit such an entry will have on his airplane and it's influence of potential buyers, should he find himself unwilling to complete negotiations with you.)

Just a few suggestions to think about. Hope this helps.

[jrenwick]

George, I think this is the best buying procedure I've ever heard of, and the best description of one that I've ever seen.

It strikes me that if the seller is willing to go along with this, you've found someone who knows his or her airplane very well, has maintained it carefully, and is confident that a rigorous inspection will not turn up anything exciting.

Otherwise, you might have to offer a premium price to get the buyer to take the risk of selling to you, because by and large, I don't think most potential buyers will be asking this much of the seller. I guess if the buyer seems squeamish about entering into this kind of a sales contract, it's probably best not to deal with them at all. It could be a pretty good "bozo filter" on the sellers!

Best Regards,

John

[N1478D]

[/quote]

4-The inspection is at your choice of facility and at your expense, except that the seller will transport the aircraft to the facility at his expense, such expenses to be mutually agreed prior to inspection. You agree that should it meet it's original written description, to buy the aircraft at the agreed price and reimburse the seller for the fuel of transporting it to the inspector...but that you owe the seller nothing and you have no further obligation should the aircraft not be as originally represented.
[/quote]

Great Advice! Except, as an owner I would have difficuties with #4. There is a Cessna Service Center who has a ham fisted mechanic of 20 years who almost always tears up or breaks one or two items while he is working on another item here locally. This FBO does not get business from long term knowing airport tennants, only newcomers or transients. Knowing that even a Cessna Service Center can be a bad place for a nice airplane, I would have trouble allowing my airplane to be delivered to a faciility picked by the buyer. Something would have to be in place to insure the airplane would be properly taken care of, and if anything was damaged during the inspection, it would be taken care of. Even then, that might still be a deal killer for me. Might wait for a buyer who would allow the aircraft to stay where I, or my mechanic, could observe the inspection and be there to stop anything that needed to be stopped.

[Tom Downey]

From a sellers view point, it would be self defeting to agree to George's method.

Any seller that has BTDT will advertise their aircraft AS IS, WHERE IS, and not cope with the tire kickers.

[Tom Downey]

Great Advice! Except, as an owner I would have difficuties with #4. There is a Cessna Service Center who has a ham fisted mechanic of 20 years who almost always tears up or breaks one or two items while he is working on another item here locally. This FBO does not get business from long term knowing airport tennants, only newcomers or transients. Knowing that even a Cessna Service Center can be a bad place for a nice airplane, I would have trouble allowing my airplane to be delivered to a faciility picked by the buyer. Something would have to be in place to insure the airplane would be properly taken care of, and if anything was damaged during the inspection, it would be taken care of. Even then, that might still be a deal killer for me. Might wait for a buyer who would allow the aircraft to stay where I, or my mechanic, could observe the inspection and be there to stop anything that needed to be stopped.[/quote]

Really dumb to allow your aircraft to get out of your control.

When I sold 2623V I had a buyer who wanted to have a pre buy completed by his mechanic. He wanted to remove the head liner to see if the cabin skin was corroded. Had I allowed him to take the aircraft to his hangar he could have dis-assembled the aircraft and refused to re-assemble with out extra payment.

Ain't no way, that my aircraft is getting out of my control.

It is up to the buyer to ascertain if the aircraft is worth the asking price.

If not, walk
If so, buy

[GAD]

gahorn

Thanks for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. It is greatly appreciated. Your remarks echo many of the comments many of the articles available on the net through national aviation web sites such as AVWEB. No plug intended, just some good info, even for sellers.

N1478D

It sounds like you had a buyer or buyer’s mechanic that was being unreasonable.

Tom Downey

If you do not permit the buyer to complete a reasonable inspection, how can you expect him to “ascertain if the aircraft worth the asking price?” Perhaps I read your response wrong but it doesn’t sound like you are giving the buyer enough room to work!? From my perspective, anyone willing to travel to see an aircraft and pay for an inspection buy a mechanic of his choosing (who should be agreeable to the seller) is not a tire kicker.

As a follow on question, are there any areas on a 170 that are prone to corrosion, cracking or any other problems?

Thanks, Greg

[GAHorn]

...It is up to the buyer to ascertain if the aircraft is worth the asking price.
...

That's why he'd better perform an airworthiness inspection. If a seller is afraid to have his airplane inspected for airworthiness, then he can forget about selling to me.

The actual shop that performs the inspection should be agreed to by the seller, but is selected by the buyer. There's no reason that the seller should categorically deny the buyer his right to select the inspection facility. If the seller has a known problem with Joe's local Cessna dealer...then find a different one. But that's no reason to give the choice to the seller! (Meanwhile, if Joe told me that I could have his plane inspected by any shop other than his local Cessna guy.... then I'd quietly make sure I visited that local Cessna guy and inquire as to why a local owner might not want him inspecting that airplane..... Perhaps theres a maintenance issue/argument Joe may have had with that inspector that I'd like to know about.)

Greg, a couple areas to look for:
1. Wing attach points. Inside the spar carry-through (hat section) is a machined aluminum "block" that is subject to serious corrosion. This is aggravated by aircraft being stored outdoors, wet, and the fact that a steel bolt (dissimilar mat'ls) goes thru it.

2. Rudder cables where they pass thru the rearmost bulkhead. A difficult area to inspect due to a lack of inspection holes. The cables may have to be withdrawn for proper inspection.

3. Tailwheel attach bracket. Especially the older, steel "box" bracket, which has a tendency to crack and crack out the "stinger" or rearmost section of the fuselage. The later, large, aluminum "fishmouth" bracket can also have difficulties in the area of the upper plate, just above the leaf springs.

4. The tailwheel main leafspring (lowest one attached directly to the tailwheel" should be suspect unless it's been changed recently. This is not an item that an owner will feel responsible for,.... just want you to know to plan on changing it if it's old.

5. Battery box corrosion. These are expensive new, and hard to find in good condition from salvage yards at decent prices.

6. Corrosion above the headliner in the cabin area. If an owner won't let you unzip the headliner and inspect up there, pass on the airplane. (Tom, perhaps it would have been satisfactory for you to have opened up your headliner and allow his inspector to look up there. You could have closed it back up when finished.) Only a fool would not become suspicious and proceed to buy un-inspected, an airplane that an owner refused to let him look at, IMHO.

7. Gearbox. Lay on your back and look at that wide double row of rivets that run between the struts for wrinkles. Remove the main landing gear spring covers and look at the blocks/extrusions that hold the gearlegs where they pass into the fuselage for looseness, corrrosion, cracks. Inspect the gearbox below the floor for damage, condition. Jack the airplane and suspend it on a cradle and shake the gearlegs while they are not supporting the aircraft. They should not be loose.

7.1 Fuel Selector Valve. The early 170/170A aircraft used a brass Weatherhead (brand) valve which is not easy to find. The later 170A/B aircraft used a square/block/machined aluminum valve with check-ball/cams (subject to a rare AD regarding only valves shipped between 12/98-5/99, rarely applicable to 170s). The later valve can usually be inexpensively rebuilt with Orings, but if the valve is not rebuildable, it is a $1K item from Cessna.

8. Firewall. Look for wrinkles, indicating accident and hard landings.

9. Doorposts. The doorposts, front and rear, are the main strength of this airplane cabin area. The front doorposts are hollow shells riveted together. Inspect the fuel lines inside the upper area just forward of the doorpost, above the sidewalls. Wrinkled, corroded doorposts are a major repair and indicate a damaged airplane. Rear doorposts tie to the rear wing spar carrythrough and should be closely inspected. Remove the inner shell of the rear doorposts to inspect the flap/control cables in there for condition and possible chafeing.

9.1 - Door hinges. The door hinges are getting scarce. The upper door hinges take a beating, expecially as folks use the door to brace themselves as they enter/depart the cabin, and as doors receive replacement weatherstips that are too bulky for the door to close upon without stressing the hinge. The left/pilot's upper hinge is especially scarce due to it's being the hinge most often abused.

10. Wing root area. Look for condition of fuel lines as they leave the tanks headed for the fwd doorposts. Farther out, check the inside of the wings generally for spar condition, and general condition. While the inside of the wings do not have to be shiney, if painted, be certain it is not to hide corrosion. (I once saw a fairly good-looking 170B that had once been on floats many years earlier. The wings were bright, shiney, silver inside....due to paint! A bright light revealed serious, large area corrosion that the paint was intended to cover up. Chromate or epoxy polyamide is OK as long as it's preventive coating ...not a cosmetic disguise.

11. All control cables, aileron, flap, rudder, elevators.

12. Flap lever, ratchet and locking-pawl rivet. See the article in the MX Library marked "urgent" about this possible failure area.
http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2231

13. Documentation. Look for undocumented repairs and modifications. 50 year old airplanes usually have several. Get them cleared up before you buy it. Do not accept undocumented, unapproved mods/repairs.
Also, have a Type Certificate Data Sheet copy in hand, and actually confirm the engine model (and dash number), prop model (and length), generator, carburator, mag models, etc. with those listed in the TCDS. Any deviations must be documented and approved. The equipment list should be up to date, and all avionics should be listed on that list, and their serial numbers recorded in the aircraft logs. (You don't want to buy an airplane with a GPS that was stolen out of a different aircraft. If the actual serial numbers on the actual installed avionics differ from those described in the equipment list/logs, then find out why and get a signed bill of sale for them as well.

[Tom Downey]

I have no problem allowing any prospective buyer to do a reasponsible inspection.........IN MY HANGAR UNDER MY CONTROL.

But to add, my aircraft are mostly sold before they are finished..

I have bought and sold a few aircraft, and I've learned a few things along the way. I once took a day off work and flew my 170 up to Vancouver Island to show it to a prospective buyer, who had been told the history of the aircraft, which had a rear spar repair in the late 50s. and the price

After flying the 170 the new buyer told me that the aircraft price did not reflect the major damage repair.

That day taught me a lesson. the aircraft is advertized as is, where is. If you want my aircraft It will be in my hangar, bring your mechanic I'll watch. Your mechanic gets stupid you and him are out of here. the deal is off I'll not have you or your mechanic ruin a lot of work, or devalue my property.

And BTW 2623V had 22 skins including the top cabin skin replaced and the entry was in the logs and the mechanic read the entry.

After I said he was not removing the shrunk in wool headlinner they got huffy and left. A week later a youg man walked up to me in my hangar and asked the selling price of the 170, I told him, he wrote the check and said he wuould be back in 3 days to pick it up. (after the check cleared)

My best suggestion to a new buyer is simple, know what a good deal looks like and when you see it, buy. IOW do your home work.

The post above giving the weak spots in the 170, is a great message.

[Tom Downey]

...It is up to the buyer to ascertain if the aircraft is worth the asking price.
...

That's why he'd better perform an airworthiness inspection. If a seller is afraid to have his airplane inspected for airworthiness, then he can forget about selling to me. .

Many owners buy aircraft as a project. I have no problem knowing the 170 is at or below market, if the aircraft has issues, but we must remember all aircraft are not show stoppers.

If it is priced right, why not buy it even if it is not perfect?

The only answer to that is, can it be repaired and still be at or below market.

[Tom Downey]

[

I surely do believe that if I had ever done business with a certain local Cessna Center, I probably would not be in a position to say that. An example - a Bonanza owner has his plane worked on at the local Cessna Center, afterwards my friend and him load up the Bonanza for their flight to Oshkosh and have a bad oil leak. Turns out this same mechanic I have been talking about failed to put gaskets back when he replaced the mags. They cancel their trip and return the plane to the Cessna Center. The mechanic puts the gaskets on that he had forgotten the first time and they are off to do their runup to try and make their trip again. They have a terrible mag drop and have to return the plane again to the Cessna Center. The mechanic quickly tells them that they have a bad capacitor in one of their mags. A good friend gets involved WHO is a good mechanic and finds out that the mechanic had used a magic marker to locate the position of the mag with a seam on the baffle, and instead of timing the mags when he replaced them, he lined up a mark on the mag with the mark he made on the baffle. Another mechanic had to be brought in, his boss to get the mess straightened out. There are only dozens of stories, some even worse than this one, that are about this mechanic. So, to protect my airplane, I have never, and will never allow him to work on it.

How would the readers here feel if that owner did not pay for all that mechanics time?

How would they feel If they had signed a work order, and then did not pay, and the mechanic filled a lien on their aircraft?

It happens folks, read what you sign. most shops now have the fine print say they can do just that.

[GAHorn]

...I once took a day off work and flew my 170 up to Vancouver Island to show it to a prospective buyer, who had been told the history of the aircraft, which had a rear spar repair in the late 50s. and the price

After flying the 170 the new buyer told me that the aircraft price did not reflect the major damage repair.

That day taught me a lesson....

If one re-reads recommendation #4, it says the buyer should agree to reimburse the seller for transportation expense if it's as described. In your situation, since you'd described the spar repair history, had you executed such an agreement then the seller would be responsible for those expenses.

... the aircraft is advertized as is, where is. If you want my aircraft It will be in my hangar, bring your mechanic I'll watch....

That's not the industry standard. The standard is that the airplane is offered for sale "as is, where is" which (again) places the cost of transport (if as represented) upon the buyer, just like #4 states. The problem is that the buyer needs to determine what "as is" ...IS! (No, ARDave, that's not an election-time comment!)

It's been my experience that if an airplane is as advertised, that responsible/honorable sellers will present it for inspection at a mutually agreed location. True, some of them require a deposit to cover travel expenses. That's what the escrow service is for...to make sure everyone keeps their word according to the agreement.
The times I've seen misrepresented junk are the same times the seller made ME go to the expense of coming to see it! (but of course, they'll never offer to place a buyer's travel expenses in escrow...because they aren't trustworthy or honorable.)

... And BTW 2623V had 22 skins including the top cabin skin replaced and the entry was in the logs and the mechanic read the entry. ...

With that much work, no wonder he wanted to inspect it. If for no other reason but to see that much work actually was performed! Did the headliner not have a zipper? If not, why not?

Many owners buy aircraft as a project. I have no problem knowing the 170 is at or below market, if the aircraft has issues, but we must remember all aircraft are not show stoppers.

If it is priced right, why not buy it even if it is not perfect?

The only answer to that is, can it be repaired and still be at or below market.

A "project" airplane was not what we were discussing. Lawn art was my attempt at humor describing something not to be flown right away.

Unless you are buying lawn-art, you will need to determine the airworthiness of the aircraft.

I doubt a "project" plane could be transported anywhere else for an annual inspection, so it should have been pretty clear we were discussing an airplane being represented as airworthy.

The comments I have made have been oriented toward the more typical owner-to-owner transaction. Not the sort of situation what's-his-name assumes when he talks of a former 170 Assoc'n member who is well known to us such as yourself. He made a lot of assumptions based upon his familiarity with you thru TIC170A and here at the forums. This is NOT the typical aircraft purchase situation.
Even in such a case as dealing with somone like yourself Tom, a buyer who does not know you, but knows that he is considering purchasing an airplane from a guy who makes a business of buying "projects" and fixing them up and selling them as "flyers",... should cause that buyer to give pause and reflect whether the repairman should be completely trusted to know the correct way not only to make the repairs, but also to have the best interests of the buyer... or the repairman, at heart when he represents that the airplane is airworthy.
In your own words, "It is up to the buyer to ascertain if the aircraft is worth the asking price." The problem is in how to protect both buyer and seller's interests, while simultaneously performing a competent and thorough airworthiness inspection, honorably and with respect for the other person.
That requires a detailed agreement and procedure to follow, and it is my attempt to describe one way to do that.

...How would the readers here feel if that owner did not pay for all that mechanics time?

How would they feel If they had signed a work order, and then did not pay, and the mechanic filled a lien on their aircraft?

It happens folks, read what you sign. most shops now have the fine print say they can do just that.

Tom, that's just not the way the industry works, except when dealing with shadetree mechanics and fly-by-night shops. At least not if you do the homework! Any reputable shop such as I have been describing in my recommendations, will require the person responsible for the inspection to pay the entire inspection fee up front. There is no obligation of the seller to the inspection facility, ....BUT the facility is obligated to the seller/owner to return the aircraft to the condition as when presented.

[cessna170bdriver]

One thing I was told to look for in 1982 when buying my airplane, that I didn't notice in this "discussion" was to take a close look at the fuselage bulkhead to which the elevator bellcrank is attached (station 205.812 in the B-model IPC, p49). Rumor had it that if the airplane had been regularly operated on rough fields, that the bouncing of the elevator could cause a crack in this bulkhead.

Miles

[Topher]

At which point in the buying/selling process should the prospective buyer go for a test flight in the subject aircraft... or is that not really a common practice?