Wheelies

[tshort]

Still working on wheel landings with the instructor .... dang they're hard!
I've read thru all the old posts and the bit on the 180 web site. We've been flying the length of the rwy a couple feet off with power, etc. but I still haven't been able to stick the mains on without enough descent rate to cause a bounce (and some have been pretty impressive! ). Part of it is that we've been out on some windy / "thermally" days with lots of up and downdrafts that complicate things.


Thomas

[4stripes]

What speed are you aiming for? A short final speed of 60 MPH shold be fast enough for a wheel landing. Don't try and pin it down, just do a normal flare, but release some of the back pressure as the mains touch. Go easy on the braking (or you may get an unwanted noesover). Later you can start braking, but watch the attitude!
Remember, treat the plane as if you must fly it until it STOPS MOVING.
Have fun!
Cheers Eric

[tshort]

Yeah, all of the above . I just haven't put it all together yet.
I've been flying a bit faster than that, maybe 65mph. Definitely not planting it on, but for some reason my sink rate always seems to go up when I'm a few feet off and I end up bouncing. I basically never use brakes - our runways around here are so long I don't really need them. Definitely no brakes when the tail is in the air!!

Thanks!

Thomas

[Paul-WI]

I just my sign off a couple of months ago and I know what you are going through . Do a search on this site and you will find a lot of GOOD advice. One thing I learned is to add just a hair of power before the wheels touch will slow your sink rate and the tires will kiss the ground, then pull the power to to idle and fly the tail wheel to the ground. I know that works for me. In fact, I am going up tonight to practice some more I don't think us low time tailwheelers can get enough of that

Paul
N3458D

[Romeo Tango]

Not tricks, it's common sense stuff. But it's good to read it and try it.

Remember the soft field landing stuff from your primary training? That bit about "a touch of power over the fence" wasn't for the benefit of the fence or clearing the engine. It arrests your descent rate, and gives you a gentle touch down as called for by a rough field. A wheel landing is essentially the same thing - you want a single, smooth, slow contact to the ground. Get to a very long runway and fly the centerline at 2" AGL. Modulate the throttle to see if you can "lower" yourself to the runway with very little vertical speed. That will give you the sight picture.

The other thing to work with is trim. You'll find that if you trim not-quite-enough nose up so you are holding back pressure during the short final sequence, that when you land you can release some or all of that back pressure and the tail will rise just ever so slightly, reducing the angle of attack of the wings (remember, the "bounce" is not an elastic effect of the tires or landing gear - It happens because the tail comes down on landing, rotating around the mains, and this gives the wings sufficient angle of attack to start flying again).

It helps to draw a diagram of the airplane to visualize this. When we have vertical momentum and it is suddenly stopped (i.e. landing an airplane) if there are any levers or arms around the point that stopped our momentum (in this case the main landing gear), they will tend to rotate to conserve that momentum. The tail has mass and an arm (lever) from the mains, and you must actively work to overcome that downward rotating tendency. You can either due this by giving a supplemental upward push on the tail with forward elevator pressure, or you can achieve the same effect with braking.

NOTE: Braking during a wheel landing is an advanced maneuver and I do not teach it to my primary students. But the very shortest short short short field landings I have even seen were in a C-180 with heavy braking and full back pressure on the elevator. When I heard about it I was quite wary, but a very qualified friend demonstrated it for me on a soft/short field and I am a believer. I have practiced it so I can do it, but I don't use it unless the conditions call for it. Nice to have in the bag of tricks, but kids don't try this without a really seasoned CFI.

Finally - once you get wheelies sorted out, be sure to use both types of landings frequently. If you only pull the wheelie out when you have strong crosswinds, you'll find yourself out of practice. And if you exclusively land 2-wheel, you'll find it hard to get 3 points working again.

Be safe!

[alaskan99669]

What helped me the most was doing low approaches and dragging the mains along the runway as gently as I could. If a crosswind was blowing I would practice doing the same thing but with just one wheel. Just do a few feet at a time until you can do it for over a hundred feet. Once you have that down it's just a matter of cutting power when the wheels touch.

[GAHorn]

Yep. Think of flying the airplane along the runway and rolling the wheels onto the pavement, then as they do so, attempting to descend still further by slight forward elevator. (Don't worry too much about striking the prop. It's very unlikely because: 1-prop diameter's approved for engine/airframes provide generous clearance. 2-as the elevator is pushed forward the relative wind strikes more of the upper wing surface increasing resistance to noseover. (tends to hold the plane to the ground and in a level attitude)
The earlier comments about braking reminded me that, when performing wheel landings, I actually find myself first providing forward elevator for the landing phase...then aft elevator during heavy braking phase of the wheel landing. Looking out the windshield, just don't let it begin to noseover during heavy braking. (Great time to get the tailwheel on the ground anyway as the rudder is about to lose effectiveness very quickly during heavy braking.)
The only time I ever scared myself during heavy braking on a 170 was when I was taxying southbound paralleling Rwy 12R at San Antonio, and (from my seven o'clock position) a landing 737 painted like a whale exited the runway via a high-speed and without prior clearance and oblivious to my right-of-way passed me up and across my taxiway. I was changing frequencies with my left hand and holding my taxi chart in my right in a rare moment when I wasn't holding the yoke. (Took a chance at the wrong moment.)
I had gotten a refresher-course that a particular airline believes they have the right of way in all circumstances, that ATC has Space-A privileges with them and won't so much as scold them, (and that it's really a foolish thing to let go of a taildragger's yoke at any time.) I really expected the prop to strike as the airplane developed quite a nose-down pitch angle. Fortunately releasing the brakes immediately corrected the situation and I was able to grab the yoke back and reapply brakes.

[170C]

Shame on Shamu

[mrpibb]

Hi Thomas,
As a fellow Ragwing owner and if you have the same stock gear legs as i do then I understand your problem with the bounce on touchdown. I as yourself found my self bouncing at first, but as the day progessed my instructor got me straightened out. Our aircraft have softer gear so it tends to rebound a little more. And as George said dont worry about nosing over youll be moving too fast for the tail to come up to far to cause any harm, I mesured my prop ground clearance at aircraft level at almost 20 inches and about 18 inches slightly tail high ( 76" prop). Aeroflex's runway is 1980 feet so I have to get it nailed down by the numbers. My technique is to have a stabilzed approach at 75 mph with the elevator trim slightly nose heavy, power is slightly above idle, as I get close to the runway I flatten my aproach with a touch more power at that point I determine if my descent rate is what im looking for, if im sinking to fast I add more power trying to maintain 70 mph on touch down. Once the wheels touch I push the yoke foward, for me about 6 inches plants me firm enough to keep it on the ground. Remember the 48 wing is different so if you get too slow your descent rate will be too much to keep the plane from bouncing. It's not uncommon for me to get a little hop before i'm planted on the mains, and again dont be shy about pushing on the yoke, hey ever try to lift the tail on takeoff with up elevator trim dialed in? Or even a touch and go? our unbalanced elevators get pretty heavy.

[LRF]

I also have a ragwing, so I agree you will need a little more speed than the the later models on final. Good advise in these earlier posts. The wheel landings are actually easier for me than the 3-points, even though I almost exclusively do 3-point landings. My home airport is poorly aligned and almost always has a significant crosswind component. The key for me is where I am focusing on the landing. I watch the numbers until I flair and then I focus on the far end of the runway. The distant focus (relative to the nose) gives me a better feel for my decent, and like the earlier posts, I use a little power to dampen that decent. The wheel landings look pretty and they are smooth for the passengers, but they seem like a risk to me under significant crosswind. There is a point at the end of that type landing where you don't have an effective rudder or a planted tailwheel, and you need one or the other to steer. As I said, I almost exclusively perform 3-points although by watching one you wouldn't have guessed - practice, practice, practice.

[pif_sonic]

If you have not read “The Complete Tail Dragger Pilot” that’s a great book to read. My instructor made me read after our first flight. The book explains the “bounce” even though it’s really not a bounce.

I have about 60 hours in my 170 and I love the Wheel landings. I do them 90% of the time. The only time I do a 3-point is for soft field. I get on the brakes very hard on some Wheel landings, if needed, and I am able to get stopped shorter than a 3-point. I am sure I need to practice more on the 3-pointers.

The two most important things I learned, as I was learning to land the 170 (THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION), was to push the stick forward as the mains touch the ground. This changes the angel of attach and the wings loose lift, therefore there is no “Bounce.” If you relax the stick or pull back, the plane will lift back off the ground because you changed the angle of attach.

The second most important thing I learned was, don’t think the landings in a tail dragger will feel the same as a tri-gear. If you are trying to make the Wheel or 3-point landings feel the same, you will always think you are making bad landings. As soon as I realized they will not feel the same, it was like the great light bulb came on, everything clicked.

IN MY OPINION, the reason the landings don’t feel the same is you don’t do the same things with the controls in a tail dragger as you do in the tri-gear. You can relax most of your control inputs in a tri-gear after landing and still have control of the plane. You can not do that in a tail dragger. That’s just my 2 cents worth of my very little experience in a tail dragger.

[tshort]

Thanks for all the tips and tricks ... lots of good information in those posts. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the concepts ... it is just a matter of putting them into practice! I don't really have a problem pushing forward and sticking the wheels on - it is more a problem of coordinating that push with the moment the tires touch. Arresting the descent rate will help that.

So far I am very comfortable with 3 pointers; went out and flew to a fly in today with my instructor and had pretty good x-winds going and coming on pretty narrow runways. I did fine with the 3 pointers, always felt in control. Stu's been flying taildraggers for 40+ years and rarely does wheel landings (he sure is good at them, though!). He argues for the 3 pointer, even in gusty x-winds (I know that's been discussed a few times here!)

When we got back, we switched the tailwheel springs to tension springs with the new kit (he is an A/P as well) - will see if I can tell a difference or not.

Thomas

[doug8082a]

I don't really have a problem pushing forward and sticking the wheels on - it is more a problem of coordinating that push with the moment the tires touch. Arresting the descent rate will help that.
Thomas

It'll come with practice. It's tough at first since when you're learning & practicing wheel landings... first your spending time with a CFI, then practice solo, then with a CFI, then solo. That addition/subtraction of weight can be real frustrating since it does affect the sink rate. Also, don't forget that flap setting affects it as well. When I was learning I decided to master wheel landings at one flap setting (20 deg. on my B), then I moved on to different settings. The techniques are the same, but vary slightly for each setting. Pick one and get it down, then move on.

Stu's been flying taildraggers for 40+ years and rarely does wheel landings (he sure is good at them, though!). He argues for the 3 pointer, even in gusty x-winds (I know that's been discussed a few times here!)
Thomas

Well, to each their own, but there WILL come a time when you will need that wheel landing in a cross wind. When I was first learning and didn't have a good command of wheel landings I 3-pointed in a pretty stiff cross wind and very quickly found myself wishing I had been able to wheel it on. You can and do lose control authority at the most critical moment in a 3-point. Don't get me wrong, I 3-point as well as wheel, just not in 15 kt crosswind that's well off the runway center line.

Hang in there, it'll come.

[beeliner]

I agree 100% with you Doug. In a stiff or gusty crosswind, you can plant the upwind wheel at a higher speed with power on, stop any side drift and you are still flying. Then you can decide when and if to plant the other main, and when and if to cut the power and let the tail down. You still have to transition through the vulnerable period but you have more things under control.

[GAHorn]

BTW....learning to wheel land is MUCH EASIER the first time with little or no flaps. Lots more time to discover the technique.