Newbie Shopping

[N2865C]

John,
sorry to get back to you so late, I don't get to get on line every day (LIKE MY KIDS) Like Bruce. said pipers are as good as Cessna's, or that was the way I took his post! When you talk c-140's I think these people are undervaluing their aircraft. I have a c-140 in the shop that the owners are asking 32K for, (I thought that was a little high) but according to the 120-140 people It is astronomical!. If this A/C was a 170 It would be worth 50-60K but everyone has there own thoughts. What's yours.
brad

I'm not an expert but I do check 120/140 and 170 prices about once a week on Tradeaplane and Barnstormers (and I really did stay at a Holiday Inn last night ). The following is my opinion only. For 32k I would expect a 120/140 with a totally restored airframe and a low time engine done by a well known shop. It would be a "10" inside and out, restored to original and capable of winning wood at regional fly-in's. There are very nice 120/140's available for 24-27k.

For me the key to finding a good plane is to not be in a hurry. I have purchased 2 planes and both times it took about a year to find one I would buy. The ones that do get listed (and many of the good one's don't) are usually gone in a day or two. It is simply amazing how many people represent their planes as in excellent condition and when you get there it's just junk.

I'm a believer in buying the best example you can find of whatever aircraft you can afford. Get a low time engine, fly it for 5 or 6 years and sell it for more than you paid for it. That's what I did with my first plane. Or better yet if it fits your needs just keep it forever. Three years ago I looked for over a year for a great 170 with 50k burning a hole in my pocket. I never found one up to my standards. Then I came across one with an excellent airframe and 85 hrs SMOH for 27k (eat your heart out) that needed "refurbishing". I could have had a good flying, airworthy but none too pretty 170 for about 32k, but that was not my vision. I have close to 50k into it doing as much of the work myself as I was capable of. I had not planned on buying a project, but it was a very satisfying experience and I have won awards at 4 of the last 5 fly-in's I attended. I like to think I could get my money out of it, but as with any financial transaction any airplane is worth what a willing buyer will pay to a willing seller.

YMMV

[GAHorn]

Bradbrady paraphrasing Bruce: Pipers are as good as Cessnas.

NOT! No way! No how! Piper has been in bankruptcy time and again and been trading hands for over 30 years. There's a reason Cessna never went bankrupt. They make better planes and support them better. (You might not like the price, but at least Cessna will supply you a part for your 170! Try getting Piper to support the junk they made well into the 80's! You must go to junk yards to get Piper parts for a reason. They're junk.) (Not speaking of the simple fabric/tube models obviously. But Piper has/had no monopoly on fabric/tube construction. One could say the same thing about any mfr in that era.)
While tube/fabric airplanes have a specialized place, ...Piper certainly never had a corner on that market. While the SuperCub is certainly a classic for a hard working bush-airplane, the Cessna 180/185/206 line is much more useful and carries more, faster, farther.
Piper's foray into the Cherokee line was their attempt to supercede the TriPacer, but as a competitor for Cessna's 172, the Cherokee was a laughable, leaky, clumsy, overrated excuse for an airplane. Burned more fuel and carried less payload shorter distances, with lousy handling thrown in for good measure. (Four place? Yeah, right!)
Cessna's rule!


(just keeping the pot stirred)

[beeliner]

Go George! The 172 is no sports car but by comparision the Cherokee line is a damn dump truck in handling. Of course, the 170 is the sports car, light and nimble for a 4-seater. No bias at all

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

......Piper's foray into the Cherokee line was their attempt to supercede the TriPacer, but as a competitor for Cessna's 172, the Cherokee was a laughable, leaky, clumsy, overrated excuse for an airplane. Burned more fuel and carried less payload shorter distances, with lousy handling thrown in for good measure. (Four place? Yeah, right!)
Cessna's rule!


(just keeping the pot stirred)

You really stirred the pot George. So much that until I quoted your post I hadn't notice your emoticons and last line in parenthesis.

Ok I think I've settled back in my chair.

My first aircraft was a Cherokee 140. I flew every place my friends took their 170s. Out climbed them and went a little faster. Had a higher useful load and endurance. It was as economical as it gets to maintain and operate including getting parts.

Of course the pitfalls of the Cherokee was the training wheel on the front. It didn't have the classic round tail and I had to park in the back at fly-ins. The worst thing about the Cherokee was it was very difficult to sit in the shade of the wing and enjoy the day at the fly-in.

[flyguy]

WAS IT JES YESTERDAY ISA SPENNIN TYM WITH GAY HORN AN NOW I GOTTA STRAY TIN HIM OUT A GIN???

IMA GONNA SIDE WITH OLE SHORT FEEL FENSMACKER. IFN YOU GIT A NEED FOR MOS BANG FER A BUK OLE PA22/20 IS HARD TU BEET.

U TAKE A 160 PA22 BIN CONVERTED AND SHE WILL FLY RINGS AROUN MY '52 C170! HOW I NO DIS?? LONG TIME AGO - - OLE GAR'S LIL DEENIE WAS GIVN HER FIRS PLANE. THAT LIL OLE BUGGER- N3239Z, BOT BY ME, THEN GIVN TU HER BY MY STOOPIDNESS -ME!

FACK IZ - JANUARY 1972, SHE FLEW ME TO THE AERO STRIP WHERE WE MADE OUR FIRS QUAINTNESS WIT THE 1952 C170B, N2693D. SEZ I - "IT SHORE IS (IT WUZ!) SHINEY AN PURTY" SO WE GOTS TU BY IT! DEENIE GRINS AN SEZ "OK"- - - BUT I FOUN OUT ON THU WAY HOME SHE SUKER ME! THAT LIL OLE 39Z WITH ONLIE 150HP, WUD SHOW ME HER TALE ANY WAY IT WUZ CUT! IT TOOK OF SHORTER, CLIME FASTER AND GO FASSER TWARDS HOME! AN ITSA GOTS A HECK OF A LOT BETTER HEATER!

NOW AS NEW ONER OF A SHINY 170 I CUD NEVER LET THAT HAPPIN IN FRONT OF EENY BODIE ELSE SO I MADE HER SOLD THAT LIL BUGGER AND WE BACK TO A ONE PLANE FAMLY AN DAT PLANE WUZ THE FASSES ONE WE OWNE

SO THAT IS MA CONNERBUSHION TU THIS ARGYMENT

[sea1dww]

I just thought I would relate my recent experience.

I just sold my other airplane in February and of course I started into withdrawals right away. I knew that the 170 was the best choice for the flying I wanted to do. I started shopping for them right away, talked with a lot of people, even traveled across the country to look at one in Atlanta.

I found myself getting the fever, you know lets get it now ... take shortcuts .... hurry, hurry, hurry. I found a 170 in Tennessee that had all the goodies I wanted, you know ... full IFR, Stol kit, vacuum pump, well maintained.

I contacted the owner who assured me the airplane was in good condition. He recommended a mechanic who was "supposedly a neutral third party". I had a pre-purchase inspection and annual done by this mechanic and was assured that the aircraft was airworthy. The owner had let the IFR cert lapse and agreed to have that done. I thought that everything was great ... so I sent the owner money prior to my arrival to see the airplane.

When I arrived to pick up the airplane, I was shocked at the condition I found the 170 in. It was most definately not what would be considered, in my opinion, well maintained. I had already given the owner money and it was too late to back out of the deal. The owner had misrepresented the airplane and the mechanic I had hired had only indicated to me that the aircraft was "airworthy". I flew the 170 home and I have spent over $4,000 on it so far and I haven't even addressed the Avionics and instrument issues yet.

Moral of the story. The '54 170B I purchased will be a great airplane, though it may take a few years to get it there. Never hand over the cash until you have seen and inspected the airplane personally. "Trust but Verify", not everyone has the same high standards you might have. Well maintained may not have the same meaning to someone else. Take a little more time to do it right and don't let the fever cloud your vision.

I love the way my 170 flys, and I'm working on the well maintained part now. Find the right airplane first, then enjoy it.

Dave

[GAHorn]

Daffy-nishun: "Well maintained" - (1) when heard by a buyer means "Maintained Well,...almost like when it was new." (2) when spoken by a seller means "it has been maintained...well... damn near constantly for almost 3 years, nickle and dime-ing me to death, I'm tired of it and now I gotta sell it!"

[CraigH]

Dave,
It's not just 170's either. I've got a nightmare story of owner misrepresentation when shopping for a Pacer. Just recently I looked at some truely awful RV's (the kind with wings) before finding one that was a truely a keeper.

[sea1dww]

We live and learn ... but sometimes the education gets real expensive.

Dave

[bradbrady]

George,
I was talking era type aircraft on Bruce's, post the pa20 flys faster than the 170 and so-on. But I wouldn't be aposed to owning a hearshy bar piper. It's just you don't fly them you drive them ,
brad

[GAHorn]

George,
I was talking era type aircraft on Bruce's, post the pa20 flys faster than the 170 and so-on. But I wouldn't be aposed to owning a hearshy bar piper. It's just you don't fly them you drive them ,
brad

(My secret mantra is Cessna singles, Piper Twins, Beech anything ...except Dukes/Duchesses. I have a soft spot for Apaches/Aztecs/Navajos. But getting all-metal Piper parts is a headache.)

[beeliner]

Good mantra George. And don't forget to calculate how many checkbooks (with big balances) you will need for some of those categories.

[bradbrady]

Good mantra George. And don't forget to calculate how many checkbooks (with big balances) you will need for some of those categories.

Yea! espically the Beech.
brad

[GAHorn]

Good mantra George. And don't forget to calculate how many checkbooks (with big balances) you will need for some of those categories.

Yea! espically the Beech.
brad

When I finally succumbed to my impulse to buy a twin, I decided against my favorites (Apaches/Aztecs) for the speed and parts-availability of a Baron. (You may not like the price...but Beech will sell you any part you need.)
When I finally succumbed to the loss of financial liquidity from feeding the thing, ... I bought a Cessna 170!
(Like Beech, Cessna will still support their airplane... Unlike others, Cessna's parts are sometimes still affordable... or at least available from affordable alternative/surplus suppliers.)

[bradbrady]

George,
I'm with you on everything, but when a Beech driver walks into the shop I get his credit card number, becuse I'm not buying the parts on my card! It will probably max it!
brad