Ethanol, another nail in the coffin of GA

[flat country pilot]

Ethanol does absorb any water that is in a fuel tank. This is a huge advantage for us here in ND, especially in the winter time when water condenses in our fuel tanks. The water burns right through the fuel system of an automobile or gas truck so that at -25F the fuel system does not freeze up. EFI or carburator, works great. If we buy fuel in the winter without an ethanol blend, and it is going to sit in the tank for even a few days, you almost always need to add HEET(isopropyl alcohol?). This absorbs the water and takes it through the egine.

In an airplane I have bad visions of big time carburator ice . I wonder if the ethanol would help or make it a lot worse year around? What about corrosion?

I like the idea of renewable fuel in all my ground vehicles. In the airplane, I want to see someone else go first and I'll watch.

Bill

[flat country pilot]

If the price of gas at the pump would go under $2 per gallon, could happen, it probably would stop the ethanol industry in their tracks. Then what do you do with a 85 million gallon per year ethanol plant?

Use the same corn and distill sour mash whiskey.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

This isn't necessarily about the economics of ethanol production although I may have opened that can of worms buy mentioning that I'd heard the economics are questionable.

Ethanol is simply the additive of choice or perhaps the only one currently available to replace MTBE. I don't know. Unfortunately for to many of us the news media is our source of information. The news media is a very bad source of information.

Who wouldn't like to see an economical, stable, renewable, source of fuel. Bill, $1.80 bushel doesn't mean anything to me. How much ethanol and at what final cost can be made from it?

What I suppose irritates me the most is that one day I had a barely affordable source for fuel for my plane. Then seemingly over night it is legislated away by ALL KNOWING POLITICIANS.

On top of that the alphabet organizations I support, in part to keep me informed of such things, aren't saying a word.

It would seem ethanol is here to stay. It's probably not news in many parts of the country but it is here in eastern PA. If several high performance aircraft like a C-180 can get an STC to run on 88% ethanol (AGE85) why can't my Cub and 170 run on 10%

What is the EAA and AOPA doing in this regard?

[cessna170bdriver]

I have lost a couple posts here when I click on preview. They dissappear forever. What am I doing wrong?

I've had this happen occasionally when I take a long time to write a post. I think the "log in" times out and when you go to preview, you aren't logged in any more. I've gotten in the habit of copying posts that take more than a few minutes over to Word before I preview. That way, you still have what you've written and can log in again, and paste back what you've written.

Hope this helps, Miles

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Bill
As far as loosing posts I think it is how you view the posts and the cache in your computer. The posts don't go away your computer just isn't showing them to you.

I have a shortcut that views all posts since my last visit. Often after viewing the first thread if I just page back to the list of threads the list changes to sometime in the past from an old cached file. I simply click my shortcut which just refreshes the view post since last visit and the full list returns.

BTW I'm told that if I logged out of the forum, which I NEVER do intentionally, then the back button would work to get to the most current list. I've never tried it.

[flat country pilot]

Thanks for the advice on posting. I have a few things to learn here to be efficient.

In 2002, one bushel of corn would yield 2.7 gallons of ethanol. I don't know what the final cost is for the energy conversion. The industry is changing fast and the cost of production is also.

I do know that the price at the pump has not come down, but the pro ethanol crowd is still claiming it will.

[GAHorn]

Been away a few days. A few items piqued my interest in this thread.
Hitler is not someone I'd consider to have been interested in the long-term health of the world or economies of fuel production. I don't think I'd use him as a resource-guide.
Alcohol will absorb water that enters fuel tanks, whether it's already in there, or if it enters in the atmosphere thru the fuel vents. (When we burn fuel, the level drops, the air enters to replace it, and the air contains humidity. Cool altitudes, nightime temp drops, etc., all contribute to liquid water in the fuel tanks...which the alcohol absorbs. When the available alcohol becomes saturated, then cooled, the water will precipitate out. If the amount is sufficient, it will cause engine stoppage.
AGE85 contains such a large quantity of alcohol, that it is presumed to be capable of carrying such quantities of water that it's unlikely to precip out on any given flight....but that's only a hopeful theory at this point. AGE85 isn't yet a common, proven fuel, in everyday use. (And in any case, laboratory tests and trial runs rarely mimic the way we use airplanes.... buy fuel, fly an hour, let it sit a month, show up and blast off for a hamburger somewhere. And not much discussion has come out of this thread yet as regards the effects of alcohol on fuel system components. Alchohol destroys rubber hoses, o-rings, gaskets, membranes, tanks, etc. that aren't specifically designed for it. Most airplanes of the vintage that we are discussing have not been properly modified for a regular diet of alcohol.)

[bsdunek]

Let's not confuse AGE85 or E85 with Gasohol. E85, or variations there of, will not even work in your car, unless you have a flex-fuel vehicle.

Gasohol is up to 10% alcohol - gasoline will not absorb much more. If you put 50% in, 40% of it would seperate. In the other direction, you can put about 15% gasoline in alcohol - any more will seperate. That's why those mixtures are mandated.

I would think, with our low-n-slow airplanes, gasohol would be no problem. It's just that an STC will need to be provided, just like for auto gasoline. Higher performance, higher flying aircraft are another story.

Another point - Ethyl Alcohol has only about 60% of the energy of gasoline. You will burn more at the same power setting which will shorten your range. Again, 10% is not a big deal, but if we wanted to set up an airplane to use E85, it would either have a very short range, or with bigger tanks, the 170 would only haul dad and the kid!

[cessna170bdriver]

...Another point - Ethyl Alcohol has only about 60% of the energy of gasoline. You will burn more at the same power setting which will shorten your range. Again, 10% is not a big deal, but if we wanted to set up an airplane to use E85, it would either have a very short range, or with bigger tanks, the 170 would only haul dad and the kid!

Even if the fuel system compatibility issues are worked out, would just upping the fuel flow still allow rated power in our engines? There doesn't seem to be an easy way to increase air flow substantially, so would the existing air flow at, say, 2700 rpm be sufficient to burn enough ethanol to develop 145 horsepower? I know that ethanol is an oxygenated compound, but is that enough?

Miles

[GAHorn]

Alcohol raises the perceived octane level of gasoline, and therefore higher compression ratios and/or timing advancments might help defray power losses. But the issue remains, the Type Certificate Data Sheet for our airplanes states: "WARNING: Use of alcohol-based fuels can cause serious performance degradation and fuel system component damage, and is therefore prohibited on Cessna airplanes."

(FWIW: In my previous post I mentioned the (humid) airspace above the fuel in a tank.... the term for which is "ullage".)