circling for purchase landing - A or B arrg!

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futr_alaskaflyer
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Post by futr_alaskaflyer »

Roesbery wrote:Having been there almost 30 years ago---, A stock 170 will teach you to use extreme caution with your loads, circling to out clime terrain, pay close attention to wind direction in the air and on the ground etc. Didn't take me long to upgrade to a 180 lyc. So "IF" you will be landing on gravel bars and ridge tops with a load of camping gear, a passenger or two and coming out with a load of meat a long way from a fuel source you need all the HP you can get. Which now days is Lyc O360, IO360, Con IO360, or Franklin 220 hp. There are a lot of places you might want to go that are 6 to 800 feet of usable runway. More that are 3 to 600 feet that cubs use and keep short just to prevent pilgrims from using their special spot. Now if you will be only going to long runways then it is not as important to have the higher HP
Boy, wish I could find and/or afford one. What do some of you call it? The "C" model? 8)

Whatever I end up with I will sure work myself up to that kind of stuff slooooowly. Maintained gravel will be the norm, or maybe a looooong gravel bar, or a nice flat beach. Skis in the winter but going into places that I darn sure know I can get out of, I imagine 145 horses is nothing you want to be plowing through 2 feet of fresh powder with no matter what prop is hanging on the front.

I sure appreciate the replies. Keep 'em coming if you want.
Richard
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'55 B model (Franklin 6A-165-B3 powered, any others out there?)
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N419A
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Post by N419A »

futr_alaskaflyer

If you’re still looking for 170's here in AK (Fairbanks), my neighbor has one that is for sale it hasn't been advertised yet. It is a 52 B model, in annual, no paint, 180 gear, 8.50 rubber, bubble side windows, V-brace (I think around 2000 TTA and 1000 on the engine OH, these are rough numbers), probably the older heater, not much interior, but clean and solid. It's on straight skis now but not sure if they'd be included. If your interested PM me and I'll give you the guys name and number.

Paul
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

The 1953 B-models, beginning with serial number 25373 (and all subsequent) had the improved cabin heating/defrost system. If I were flying anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon line (and on some frosty days south of that line), I'd want that system, (which automatically will include the large flaps.) The "lady legs" landing gear began with serial 25612. It had a slightly "stiffer" spring-rate, albeit with the loss of interchangeabilty right/left.

For a comparison of take-off and landing distances: Sea Level, 20-deg F:
The B-model take off over 50' obstacle: flaps zero=1580, flaps 20=1350, landing=1070.
The A-model take off over 50' obstacle: flaps zero=1580, landing=1640. (No reduction of takeoff distance was documented with use of flaps although Owner's Manuals allowed for use of flaps during takeoffs.)

For a more "standard" day: Sea Level, 60-deg. F:
170-B, takeoff zero flaps=1820, flaps 20=1625, landing=1145.
170-A, takeoff zero flaps=1820, ------------------,landing=1755.

Another significant difference with '53 and later aircraft, is the pressure-cooling cowl, which is somewhat easier to obtain parts for due to use in early 172's. A purchase of any 170 should also include a look at the exhaust system, with a premium being given to the Hanlon-Wilson type exhaust used on all B models starting with serial 20267, and subsequent (keeping in mind that the Hanlon-Wilsons may be retrofitted to all earlier aircraft.)
Last edited by GAHorn on Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:50 am, edited 6 times in total.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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blueldr
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Post by blueldr »

In Cessna 170 model airplanes, the "B" model is the way to go!
BL
Tom Downey
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Post by Tom Downey »

I liked my 48.
Tom Downey A&P-IA
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KG
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Post by KG »

I have a question regarding the A / B differences. If I look at Trade a Plane and search for 170s, then click on the button at the top left that says "perf specs", it shows info from the manufacturer about the various models. The only big difference in the A and B according to that is the range. It shows the A with 410nm range and the B with 325nm range. Is that correct? If so, why? Am I missing something that should be obvious?
Keith
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Well KG some here at the forum say the B models, specially red trim award winners, fly slower. :D

I can't think of a reason why the range would be different between the A and B models.

Roughly speaking the 410 nm seems about right. 9 gph would be a conservative number for planning purposes. 37 gal usable in both models planes would yield just over 4 hours of flight time. Most 170s will do 100 kts specially at 9 gph. That works out to a ball park 400 nm. Most 170s will go faster than 100 kts at that power setting and easily exceed the 410 nm.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

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cessna170bdriver
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Post by cessna170bdriver »

I'd say the 325nm for the B is a typo. The published ranges (no reserve) in the 1956 owner's manual go from 404sm (351nm) at 2700 RPM at sea level (12.5 gph 8O ) to 689sm (599nm) at 2100 RPM at 7500 ft (5.0 gph). These are extremes. I use 4 hours and 100 knots TAS for planning purposes. Four hours chock to chock will use about 30 gallons. Your mileage may vary. :lol:

Miles
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“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

KG, did you feel your pants-leg being pulled a little bit there? :lol:
TAP isn't a reliable source for performance data. Lots of errors there. The "official" data from Cessna's Owner's Manuals (which is uncertified but useful) says the 170A has 592 s.m range at 6000 feet. It states the B model has 596 sm at 5000' and 629 sm at 7500', interpolation giving us about 605 sm at 6000'. All these figures are using 2400 rpm, and are without allowance for wind or fuel reserves.
The straight 170 has about 5 gals less useable fuel than the A/B models, (and therefore about 60 sm less range) but otherwise has similar performance to the A. (It should be said that it's a common modification for straight 170 owners to add a second tank to their left wing, to match the right wing installation. In such case, the airplane actually gains 12.5 gals, and therefore would have about an hour's more endurance than either the A or the B models.)

In reality, there's no "apples to apples" comparisons out there. No two airplanes are actually "identical, except for fight/engine times, and condition." Therefore each airplane evaluation must be made seperate and alone. But in theory at least, we try to subjectively "level the playing field" so that we can assign a relative value to each airframe, then decide which is the best "buy". Right?
Well, I'd say that the entire Cessna 170 lineup is a good choice for an "all around" airplane, regardless of which specific model is selected. All of them, under standard conditions, will carry 4 people about 3.5 hours w/reserve, burning about 8 gph, at about 120 mph, out of 2,000-2500' runways. They all have baggage compartments which can be used for any available unused useful load (generally placarded to 120 lbs.)
If those criteria meet your mission profiles, then the "best" one will be the one in the best conditon relative to price. The earlier models will likely carry a price advantage because most people do not place added value on the fabric wing. The A/B models, being an all-metal wing, is considered by most to have slightly more value due to it's ability to better withstand the rigors of outside storage, (although a fabric wing can be easily inspected/re-newed for internal structure etc., while the metal wing is a bit more troublesome/expensive if repairs are necessary, due to such things as corrosion. Fabric "skin" is simpler to remove/replace.)
The A model set the standard for the subsequent airplanes, and only minor "improvements" followed. Most "improvements" were in cosmetics, although some airframe design changes occurred such as already noted, the B-model introduced larger flaps and dihedral (for added stability although none of the earlier models had any stability issues), and the '53 and later B's had pressure cooling cowls and better cabin heating/ventilation. (My own opinion considers the still-later models with external tailwheel steering, serial 26505 and subsequent, an unnecessary and potentially troublesome complication, and I don't care for the '56 model's plastic interior, but otherwise they are good B-models.)
Buy the airplane in the best overall condition, with the lowest engine time, and the best avionics. All of 'em are just fine airplanes. IMHO (although there is anecdotal evidence that owner's of red B models are admired by more women.) :wink:
Last edited by GAHorn on Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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Indopilot
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Post by Indopilot »

Of course being admired by more women causes more trouble at home and leads to a net decrease in happines. That is why truely happy pilots paint their A/C cream and Blue or other colors besides red. :D
52 170B s/n 20446
56 172 s/n 28162
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KG
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Post by KG »

I went to school in Georgia so I know my math skills might be a little weak but, yes, even I thought that looked odd. Same fuel capacity and same engine should result in somewhere near the same range. Pure speculation but I was wondering if that information might have been published with the B model having IFR reserves and the A model with no reserve since that looks like around 45 minutes worth of difference.

Clearly if the red B model is better for attracting women I'll have to give that some serious consideration. :D

Keith
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Post by CraigH »

KG wrote:Clearly if the red B model is better for attracting women I'll have to give that some serious consideration. :D
Somebody forgot to clue my wife in on that one. She doesn't care what color or model - she doesn't like any of them. :(
Craig Helm
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

KG wrote:I went to school in Georgia so I know my math skills might be a little weak but, yes, even I thought that looked odd. Same fuel capacity and same engine should result in somewhere near the same range. Pure speculation but I was wondering if that information might have been published with the B model having IFR reserves and the A model with no reserve since that looks like around 45 minutes worth of difference.

Clearly if the red B model is better for attracting women I'll have to give that some serious consideration. :D

Keith
"The "official" data from Cessna's Owner's Manuals (which is uncertified but useful) says the 170A has 592 s.m range at 6000 feet. It states the B model has 596 sm at 5000' and 629 sm at 7500', interpolation giving us about 605 sm at 6000'. All these figures are using 2400 rpm, and are without allowance for wind or fuel reserves."

No performance figures are available from Cessna which included reserves. There is no telling how TAP came up with that figure, but it's wrong.

Lots of guys I know claim their favorite brand of motor oil is the best. I've got a Jeep with 275,000 miles on it using el-cheapo brand motor oil.
I have no idea if el-cheapo is so good that it got it that far or not. All I can say is, that el-cheapo didn't prevent it from getting that far.
I've got the best woman in the world living with me, and that hasn't been prevented by owning a red 170B. I can't say the same thing about most of the women hanging around during my ownership of other colors, such as for the Aeronca, 206, or Baron. I'm sure it wasn't anything to do with me, since I'm the same, old, crusty, scratchy, colorful man, and except for color, those models aeroplanes each had their good points as well. :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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cessna170bdriver
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Post by cessna170bdriver »

gahorn wrote:(My own opinion considers the still-later models with external tailwheel steering, serial 26505 and subsequent, an unnecessary and potentially troublesome complication, and I don't care for the '56 model's plastic interior, but otherwise they are good B-models.)
I'm glad you qualified that as an opinion that the later tailwheel steering system is only potentially troublesome. :wink: Admittedly, the system is more complex, and the internal pulleys require a bit of extra effort to inspect and maintain, but IMHO, less likely to cause a safety of flight issue. The original style system adds a lot of strain on the rudder bellcrank, and I've seen several that were bent and/or loose at the attachment. The later system removes all of the tailwheel steering loads from the rudder bellcrank and takes them directly from the rudder cables. Also, the steering cables connect at a more direct angle to the tailwheel steering arm, which in conjunction with the wider arm, cuts down on (if not eliminates) incidences of bent steering arms.

I couldn't agree more on your distaste for the plastic interior parts. I think it was just Cessna's attempt to keep prices down. What bothers me more about the '56 models are the lack of a cowl access door and openable passenger window on the right side of the airplane. More cost saving measeres, I presume. :x
gahorn wrote:Buy the airplane in the best overall condition, with the lowest engine time, and the best avionics. All of 'em are just fine airplanes. IMHO
AMEN :!:
gahorn wrote:(although there is anecdotal evidence that owner's of red B models are admired by more women.) :wink:
Hmmm... where is that gagging emoticon.... :lol:

BTW, anybody heard from the Texas owner of a certain green A model? He's been conspicuous by his absence these past months.
Miles

“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
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blueldr
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Post by blueldr »

If you're seriously considering buying a C-170, keep in mind how you want to use it. I have almost totally operated with the rear seat removed to carry camping gear, or some other bulky items. I can't even remember when I've had a third or fourth SOB (Thats "Soul On Board") so that I needed the back seat. I carry a permanent kit of survival items and a tail wheel in the extended baggage compartment weighing about thirty five pounds. That helps the CG and they're out of the way. The B model is the only one that can accept the extended baggage compartment due to the location of the control cables in the other models.
Bruce F. mentions 9 GPH as a flight planning fuel burn.
I have never found a time that I needed over 8 GPH for generous flight planning and an extended cruise usually calculates out at about 6.8 GPH flying at medium altitudes at around 2400 RPM giving about 112 MPH TAS. This figures out to about 16 miles/gal, or 2.4 nm/lb. of fuel.
As for fuel available, the figure of 37 gals. useable is probably true in a very, very nose high or low attitude. In a normal cruise or gradual descent attitude every drop of the 41 gals. my airplane holds can be run throughthe engine. I know this because I've purposely it done one tank at a time in order to know EXACTLY how much is available.
Unless I'm flying around the local patch, I try to make a habit of landing with at least an hour of fuel remaining. Call me "Chicken", I guess. That means I can fly a four hundred mile fuel leg comfortably under most circumstances. Bladder capacity not withstanding.
I regularly fly from Jackson, CA, to Johnson Creek airport, ID. The first leg is 425 sm to Nampa, ID, at 9,500 ft. (starting at 1,600 ft.). The airplane TOW is usually about 2,200 lbs. with FULL tanks. Flying time is about 4 hours including the climb and fuel burn averages 28.75 gals. One trip last year I did put in 30.4 gals. but it took a hair over four hours. However, I always landed with more than my preferred personal reserve.
All in all, I can't think of an airplane I'd rather have for my own personal use. It's real simple, economical to operate and maintain, and is a delight to fly. What more could you ask for? (Maybe a nose wheel?)

The "B" model is the way to go!
BL
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