Wheel landing or Three point landing?????????

[blueldr]

Under normal circumstances in the average C-170 with two people up front, the airplane will be nose heavy on landing and difficult to three point. It will become much better handling if you put a couple of bags of sand in the baggage compartment. Almost all of the single engined Cessnas are nose heavy without some weight in the back. I never even try to three point my airplane unless I have some weight in the rear end.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

BL I completely agree the Cessna 170 and Piper Cherokees are nose heavy.

But I almost never wheel land my 170 regardless whether I have weight in the back or not.

I'll three point 19 out of 20 landings regardless of the weight, balance or wind conditions. Three points are what I'm most comfortable doing and I can do them well. This doesn't make me right or wrong just different than BL.

[Robert Eilers]

I agree with all that has been said about wheel landings v. 3 point. Personally, I find the wheel landing works best for me in strong cross wind conditions. I use the 3 point for short or soft field landings and weight aft helps.

[Bill Hart]

I too am new to the 170. I now have about 20 hours in mine. I can make a decent 3 point but my wheel landings leave much to be desired. My question is a couple of times I have landed Tail wheel first is this a problem? It happened in the first 5 hours I flew the thing and haven’t done it since but I was wondering if I might have done some harm to the aft bulkhead. I did not hit hard at all but I am still wondering. Has anyone else done this?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Bill are you kidding. No of course your not.

While it would be impossible to say there was no damage to your plane I would pretty much guarantee there isn't.

On some of my very slow high angle of attack approaches I've hit the tail wheel first probably with the mains at what seem to be at least 2 feet in the air, some higher. Such landings usually are followed by a second landing as the main gear bounces the aircraft back into the air. I try not make this a habit.

I haven't damaged my aircraft yet that I'm aware off.

It is not uncommon when I'm making a short slow 3 point for the tail wheel to touch just before the mains.

[N4653B]

landed Tail wheel first is this a problem?

This is very common as posted above. I've found in high AOA, I.E. Slow, 3 pointers the tail touches first. Most airplanes, just the geometry of the gear/tires dictates that at max AOA the tailwheel with touches first. As a matter of fact, many POH's actually mention this as a normal and desirable condition(piper pacer, Cessna 180, some models of Pitts). Don't sweat it.

Ofcourse, if it's slaming into the ground followed by metal crunching noises....all bets are off!

Bill

[GAHorn]

For the tailwheel to touch slightly before the mains is not a problem at all, at normal descent rates. In fact, if it does touch first, it will cause the airplane to make an immediate reduction in angle-of-attack, and thereby help assure that the airplane remains on the ground rather than bounce.

It's useful to also consider this situation when making a wheel landing. If the wheel landing is made with excess airspeed and at a high rate of descent, ... then when the mains touch...the tailwheel continues toward the ground due to momentum. This increases the angle-of-attack and causes the airplane to become airborne again. If the pilot then attempts to "stick" the airplane to the ground with forward yoke, then when it hits again,...it bounces again...and the situation can worsen with each attempt.

I recommend that while practicing for wheel landings that FIRST: You approach the runway and level off about a foot or two above the runway, and then add a small amount of power...just enough to remain airborne in ground effect.... and fly the entire length of the runway at that one foot of altitude. When the runway length is flown, then add "go around" power and climb up for another trip around the pattern.
Do this numerous times until you are thoroughly bored with your ability to accurately control that one foot altitude at low speed. Then you are ready for the wheel landing. It's a much simpler task now. Next approach, do exactly the same as before..... approach the runway, ... level off at one foot carrying only enough power to hold the altitude, then fly the airplane onto the runway...think of it as "rolling the wheels" onto the runway ...as opposed to actually landing. I find it helpful to have the airplane trimmed nose-heavy. As the wheels roll onto the runway, ... relax back pressure on the yoke, ... or even apply firm forward pressure on the yoke. Think of holding the tail airborne so it will NOT lower to the runway. You've just made a wheel landing.
Pull the power to idle, and as the airplane slows, the elevator will lose effectiveness. Before it completely loses effectiveness, bring the yoke back into your lap to stick the tailwheel to the ground. Ta-Taaaaa!

[Stinson driver]

In my 170 I prefer to 3 point- When I 3 point I come over the fence at about 55-60 MPh and for a wheeler I prefere about 65 mph with a litle power untill the wheels touch- I always wheel my Stinson 108.

Doug S/Africa

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George that is a very interesting technique I'll have to remember.

About a year ago I transitioned a retired L1011 pilot with virtually do small airplane time into the 170 and gave him a tailwheel sign off.

Except for taxiing he was a very quick study. We learned 3 point landings first then I demonstrated a wheel landing. Following that landing on the next departure I had him slightly reduce power after the airplane rotated on the mains and had him roll down the runway on the mains for an extended period. This gave him both the site picture and the confidence he could control the airplane on the mains on landing.

[zero.one.victor]

You will almost always bounce/fly off doing a wheeler if: 1) you do not have a very low descent rate, or 2) you have back pressure on the stick when the mains touch. There is a good article all about wheel landings on the skywagons.org site, written by Bill White, about the landing techniques as taught by MAF. While there's a couple of aspects of this technique I don't use & don't necesarily agree with, all-in-all it's a very good article. He emphasized stopping the descent rate by leveling off just above the runway with a couple seconds of firm back pressure, then releasing that back pressure & letting the airplane settle onto the ground without pulling on the stick. Hard to do when you start sinking, but it works. Read the article (and any others you can find),experiment with different methods, and you'll come up with what works best for you.

Eric

[GAHorn]

Bruce, I also used that technique when teaching a "difficult" client how to handle crosswinds. By flying down the runway at one foot, reduced power, and by introducing them to the idea of staying over the centerline, regardless of bank or rudder application...they could develop a "sight picture" and also see that we could fly one wing low, opposite rudder, and still stay at one foot, directly over the center line. A simple transition to landing in that attitude could be made by first showing how we could roll a wheel onto the pavement and keep it on only one wheel with bank and opposite rudder. Further transition to the other main, and then the tail was demonstrated.
By using the entire length of the runway and going around for another demo, ... the technique/demo was slowed down and time allowed for the client to develop the technique. Lots of ways to skin the cat... mine ain't the only one, but it worked for my most "challenged" clients.
(Of course, you rotorheads have a different perspective with regards to low altitude than fixed wing guys ever have. Your ability to hover and spend time in that position makes for an entirely different view, no? Gotta admit...some day I hope to get that rating too, if only as a personal challenge.)

[dacker]

What good timing to bring up the rotorhead thing. After doing the "Stay-at-home-Dad" thing for the past five years I have recently decided to get back into the "helicopter bidness" again. I have been flying the Robinson R22 after about a five year hiatus. How incredibly humbling. Now mind you, I used to be able to say that I was a much better rotor-wing pilot than fixed wing pilot, now I feel like a jack-of-all-trades...master of none pilot . I have been practicing my taildragger skills, brushing up on my instrument skills, and trying to master autorotations in a light helicopter that seems to have virtually zero inertia in the rotor system... I must have masochistic tendencies, because it is still fun! Oh, did I mention that this little torture device costs $235/hour ...I've got to make all of my time count (just think of what else you can do for $235/hour!).
George, I like your method of dragging the runway a few times at low power, that sounds like a good exercise.
David

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George I will log that technique as well.

I have taken notice myself of your observations about rotorheads. Many of my friends who fly planes with me remind me that I'm way to comfortable way to low. I know many rotorheads who won't go above 1500 agl and their absolute ceiling is 3000 ft agl. many rotorheads won't even get into a dangerous airplane

I've got to tell you I've had more fun at 100 agl or lower in a helicopter that any other machine. I've known more than one fix wing pilot who once having the controls of a helicopter in his hands and lifting to a hover didn't want to let go. David I've got a little humbling time in an R-22. They can be a beast.

[Dave]

Hi There Brucer
I'll put in a good word for you here at the HAI in Dallas (I'd rather be in San Diego, duh). At work us heli maintenance types call the aviators "DP's" (dumb pilots).
I think 3-pointers are just unnessary wear on the tail wheel assy (but you should know how to do them). and wheelies give you that reeel nice feeling that you still have some control, especially in a x-wind. Took a few years to get the nerve to do the first one, but I never looked back. Like George says, when you do put the tail down, haul that yoke right back. Also never make the mistake of putting the flaps back up before lowering the tail or you will get a sudden shock when then tail crashes down.
That's just my opinion.
DaveM

[zero.one.victor]

Regardiing flying low: an ag pilot made a comment on the backcountry pilot forums that in foothill/mountain/canyon country you should fly at 5 feet or at 500 feet AGL-- anything in between is just asking for powerline/cable strikes. Kinda makes a good point.

Eric