landing

[simatos]

After a long rebuild I am hoping to get flying my 170. Having flown 150s and 172s I am concerned about all the nasty stuff I hear about tail draggers. I have checked out on a Citabria but how do you guys with 170s set up for landing. I am sure there are as many opinions as pilots but I would appreciate any pointers you all might have
Gary CFGTY sn25121

[CraigH]

I'm far from an expert in 170s since I've only had mine a couple of weeks (less than 15 landings). Before the 170 I flew a 7GCBC for about 150+ hours and find the 170 much easier to land gracefully in calm winds. Don't have any nasty crosswind experience in a 170 yet so I'll have to defer that to some of those with more experience in type.

[phantomphixer]

For what it's worth, here's my $0.02 worth. I always 3 point mine. I've done wheelies but I prefer 3 pointers. I have no problems with up to 10-12 Knots across the runway but I start looking for a better wind alignment above that. May not be the bravest but I've got 500hrs in mine and only stupidity has caused my two "AWWW S**T" No damage except to my pride. Both were above 14 knots. Broke my own rule.

With the wind reasonably down the runway. I make all approaches (full flaps) at 70 and over the numbers at 60. . I quit looking at the airspeed ind at that time and fly it to touchdown. Then I fly it to the chocks/tiedown. Less flaps for X-wind.

Try http://www.taildraggers.com and click on their documentation link for a complete discussion.
Good luck and welcome to the greatest association on the internet.

[170C]

I have a fair amount of time in Cessna 140's and my 172 tail dragger + vrs in Citabra's, and other conventional geared planes. As Craig said, I'm no expert. I don't think anyone is. The best of us can get humbled by our steeds every so often.

I approach the final just as I would in any comparable weight plane of the high wing type whether tailwheel or trike. In calm air I try to come over the fence at about 60 mph +-, get it slowed down over the numbers for a 3 pt landing. If it is a bit gusty I may carry more speed and do a wheel landing. Different folks use different amounts of flaps. Unless there is a strong/gusty cross wind I use a full 40 degrees. They are there to slow you down and I use them thusly. Its when the gear touches the runway that it gets interesting. Keep the yoke all the way back if in a 3 pt landing. Even a slight forward yoke position can put you back in the air at a time you don't want to be. Keep it going down the runway straight and don't stop being alert until you tie her down! Someone told me when I was learning to fly in a C-140 that the flying wasn't over until the plane was in the hangar and I believe what they say. Getting the wing down into the cross wind is important to prevent being blown across/off the runway. As I am sure you were taught, keep your hand on the throttle as it can be your best friend both on take off and landing and don't be afraid to do a go around if you don't feel comfortable with how things are going. My last suggestion is to find a grass strip to practice on. Grass is much more forgiving than concrete, asphalt or gravel and until you are comfortable with your landings on grass, I'd avoid hard surface runways except when the wind is right on your nose. I am sure a lot of others will have their suggestions and some may even disagree with some of mine, but that's my feelings about landings. Of all the phases of flight, landings can be the most satisfying or the most frighting and expensive of all.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[doug8082a]

This has been a discussed a number of times on the forum. One posting that might shed some light is:

http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1894

Midway down page one is a re-posting of an excellent wheel landing article from the 180/185 Club.

[jrenwick]

Landings deserve a lot of concentration, but don't forget about takeoffs! When I was first learning to fly a 170, I found the takeoffs scarier than the landings, until I learned how to do it right and what to avoid. Don't hold the tail down too long, and don't try to lift it before it's ready to fly. Be ready to add right rudder as the tail comes up, but if you don't bring the tail up quickly you won't need as much.
Be careful of crosswinds, especially from the left. Taxi slowly onto the runway, get it lined up, then give it power.
I really frightened myself once by turning right onto the runway with a left crosswind, and coming on with the power while I was still turning. Left wing started to fly before I was even lined up, and I thought I was going to groundloop!

John

[simatos]

Thanks you guys. All very interesting and informative comments. I will let you know how it goes. I am around the corner form Kalowna BC where the convention will be next year so mabe will meet you alll then Cheers Gary

[4-Shipp]

One of the most common errors I see as both a CFI and a military flight instructor is addition of an extra 5-10 mph/knots for "mom and the kids" on final approach. A friend with an experimental Revolution (2 seat tandem, low wing, open-cockpit tail dragger with Cub/Champ like performance) would regularly fly final at 80-90 mph because he was concerned with getting too slow on final. This airplane stalled at less than 50 mph making 1.3 x Vs between 60-65. Unfortunately, this solution for a "perceived" problem, getting slow and stalling on final, caused some significant "real" problems in the flare. Add an extra 10 knots in a 60,000 pound fighter that touches down at 170 knots or more and you just committed to using a whole lot more concrete than necessary, and maybe more than you have!

Extra speed on final puts you over the fence with excess energy. There are usually two ways this extra energy is dealt with. Most commonly, the airplane is allowed to land long, beyond the desired touchdown point. Most pilots have been taught to do a reasonably complete flare or will have learned the hard way the consequences of forcing the airplane on the ground before it is ready, energy wise. If you fly out of a large airport with 3,000 feet or more of runway it is easy to become comfortable with this practice.

The second common solution is one previously mentioned. Recognizing they are floating through the desired landing zone, they will allow (or force) the plane to touchdown with excess airspeed. In a trike-geared airplane, this practice only results in excess brake and tire wear. As long as the airspeed is not so high that the nose gear touches first, they get away with it. If they are above the speed that puts the front wheel down first, things get exiting! In a tail dragger, this extra energy can also be handled fairly routinely if you are wheel landing. When I first got my 170, I would routinely do wheel landings with no or one notch of flaps and touchdown around 70-80 mph. This works great and may be appropriate in excessive crosswinds, but I have found that it is just as easy to wheel land with full flaps and 20-30 mph less on the ASI. I have adopted the AMF 180/185 style and really like it. I suggest you read the article on the post previously mentioned. Again the biggest issues are excessive runway use and tire and brake wear. Some will argue the added stress on the landing gear and airframe, especially on rough fields - all valid points.

If you are planning a 3-point landing and touchdown with too much airspeed, the mains touch first, the tail drops, the AOA increases and you get to try again. A classic bounce and time to go around.

The only way I know to successfully counter the effects of too much speed on final is a very early power reduction that allows you to cross the fence and begin the flare with the appropriate amount of energy. While it is possible to become consistent and proficient at this challenging technique, it is much easier to fly the recommended speeds to begin with.

As for wheel landings vs. full stall landings, I routinely practice both. We have grass right next to the asphalt at our airport and I use either, with 3 points primarily on the grass and wheelies on the hard surface. It has been my experience (with practice) that I can touchdown on a wheel landing just as smoothly, or more so, as a 3 pointer. On a wheel landing I use the same technique the Aviation Mission Fellowship pilots use for their 180s (see previously mentioned article). I use 1500 rpm for power, full flaps and 60 mph on final.

You suffered through all of that to get to two recommendations:

First: Fly final approach on speed! Your 170 will be more than happy flying final at 1.3 Vs and will treat you very will in the flare when you do.

Second: Decide, before you turn base, whether you are going to do a 3 point landing or a wheel landing. Then, stick with your plan. I have seen more botched landings because the pilot either never makes up his mind or changes it in the short hairs. The “I’ll try a wheel landing and if that gets screwed up I’ll transition to a 3 point” game plan is rarely successful!

Welcome to the 170, make a lot of landings and have fun!

[AR Dave]

Bruce, great post and I agree on every point.
My wheel landings and 3-points are the same technique until flare or used to be anyway. Years ago my wife would help me stay proficient at both, by announcing 3-point or wheels, at the last minute. Then she would give me a 1 to 10 rating. We enjoyed doing this on our trip from Alaska to Arkansas.
My preferred wheel landings are very slow, same as 3 point.

Not long after I started flying, I had to learn how to land on a rocky creek bed at a camp I operated in AK. My partner taught me in his Super Cub. (Bruce F., I just remembered I have this on video) There were no 2nd chances and no using power to go around. The backstop was a mountain. 3-point landings would break the tail off on the rocks.
I'd come in as flat as possible from as far out as possible, sometimes clipping the alders, power off as touching, and on the brakes holding the tail up. I'd like to say I dumped the flaps, but in truth the plane was done flying when the wheels touched with no power and I had to concentrate on keeping the tires on the trail anyway. I knew where the stall speed was.

I should not write this - but lets shake it up! Shortest field takeoff - as you apply full power, add full aileron one way or the other depending on wind or direction of turn after take-off. Your aileron will be the airspeed indicator. As you start rolling lift the tail as soon as possible, work hard to hold the tail as low as you can without touching the ground. Continue holding FULL Aileron.
As you are accelerating you will notice the wing starting to rise, this is your first sign of Airspeed. In the amount of time that it takes to roll out half the aileron slowly and add a little more back pressure you will be in the air. Actually a 170 member taught me this. If anyone is interested, I have a full write up on file. It does take practice, it isn't pretty, but it gets you off the ground at the earliest flying speed.

[auxtank]

As long as the airspeed is not so high that the nose gear touches first, they get away with it. If they are above the speed that puts the front wheel down first, things get exiting!

I agree, things can get "exiting" in that situation.

YMMV, but I find that, combined with 8.50 tires, an 80/42 prop acts almost like speed brakes when pulled to idle over the fence. Often times, I can keep the pilots of faster planes (lots of C207 and Cherokee 6 traffic at my home airport) happy by zipping down final with extra speed (75-80 knots) and then making a power-off wheel landing. If I touch down at the right spot at the right speed, I don't have to touch the brakes and application of continuing nose-down elevator means the tail falls gently to the ground just shy of the first exit. At that point I usually need a little power to make the turn off the runway.

This is not my usual practice. But, it works well when a couple of the Part 135 boys (or an Alaska Airlines 737) are on my tail.

I guess the recommendation is: one, know your plane and its capabilities; two, practice and become proficient at a number of techniques; three, choose the technique that fits the situation; and, four, have a heck of a time flying one of the best planes ever made.

Gordon Sandy
N4002V

[rudymantel]

Tower: Roger 1234Zulu, you're cleared to land
Pilot: Oh-Oh, this is the part I hate...

[N170CT]

Or as my crusty old CFI used to say during rollout while searching the floor for his glasses:

"Wow, Chuck, you certainly don't use much runway....just a little bit here and a little bit there."

[cessna170bdriver]

Tower: Roger 1234Zulu, you're cleared to land
Pilot: Oh-Oh, this is the part I hate...

To put it another way: "This is situation for which I bought insurance!"

Miles

[GAHorn]

There are four reasons I carry insurance:
I don't trust brakes will keep me from running into someone's expensive toy.
I don't trust that those too irresponsible to buy insurance won't run into me.
I don't trust weather and fire not to destroy my airplane.
I don't trust my own belief that I'm a great pilot.

[zero.one.victor]

Gary, I pretty much second Bruce's comments. For wheel landings, read the article by Bill White about the MAF's training. You can get to it on http://www.skywagons.org . It's kinda counter-intuitive after the initial "flare" (arresting the sink rate) as you have to avoid flaring as the airplane settles onto the runway. But it is an effective method of wheel landing.
My 2 cents: you might want to go out & play around with some stalls-- specifically approach stalls, both clean & with flaps. Then you have a baseline Vso from which to calculate your 1.2 or 1.3 X Vso to use for an approach speed.
Then practice, practice, practice-- both wheelers & 3 pointers. You do want to competent at both, as they both have their uses. I generally 3 point on unpaved surfaces, and split my paved landing about 50/50 between 3 pointers & wheelers. If there's muich of a crosswind, I usually wheel land.
I do disagree a bit with Bruce- I have turned botched 3 pointers into pretty decent wheel landings by "sticking it on" right as it comes down from the "classic bounce" that Bruce mentioned. You can salvage a botched 3 pointer by doing this, or you can power up, stabilize in 3 point attitude & try again, or (probably best) you can go around. It is pretty hard to turn a botched wheel landing into a decent 3 pointer though!
Remember, like Bruce said, it's all about airspeed control on final, and that a bleep approach makes for a bleep landing. Although it's also counter-intuitive, you can sometimes salvage a too high, too fast approach by pulling the nose up for a lower airspeed--the resulting increase in sink rate can bring you down better than a slip. I've heard this referred to as "stalling it down", but of course you're not really stalling, just maybe mushing a bit. But you do have to remember to either cushion your arrival with a bit of power, or push the nose back down to regain some airspeed (and energy) for the flare.

Eric