1948 C170 versu C170A/B

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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

N1478D wrote:
mrpibb wrote: As with most small airports, the usually weekend gang hangs out and watch the landings of others. a few months back I made a perfect 3 point landing in view of one of the older aviators of great knowledge. Later he came up to me and said "Vic I give you a 9 on the landing, it was perfect" I said " I thought ten was a perfect landing :? " he said "nope, you slipped the airplane on the approach which meant you were too high, you get a 9"
:wink:
That must be a really nice airport! The only time people are standing around watching landings at the airports I land at is when I screw up and do a bad landing! :lol: Any other time there's no one around!
Nice try, Joe! But that still doesn't explain why no one's ever seen you do a nice landing! :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

beeliner wrote:I got my insurance-required checkout in a rag 170 in 1987. I've owned a 53B and now have a 56B. I do like the "modern" features in the newer B but all 170's are among the best classics ever. For me the only drawback to the ragwing is the rag- and it's just economics. If you get one with good cover at the right price it's great. If you have to pay to have any small plane to be recovered, the price can easily be over half the value of the plane.
Here's a suggestion to those who have ragwings coming up on re-cover:
Attend an EAA Workshop on fabric covering. The workshops are one weekend, and cost about $350. You'll have a fun time, meet some new friends, and leave with all the knowledge and skills necessary to recover your wing. Find an A&P to inspect your wing for needed repairs when it's stripped, and when finished, and to help you re-install it, and sign it off.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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3958v
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Post by 3958v »

I agree with George. I recoverd my own wings with my AI checking my work and I must say it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot about my plane and got a better than average looking job on my first try. I used Randolph dope and ceconite but I have seen many great jobs with Poly fiber products. Cost was about $2,000 for wings that have now been inspected thoroughly and look better than new. Only downside is it takes time away from flying. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
beeliner
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Post by beeliner »

I agree with George too ----- in theory. But I'm lucky to have enough time to fly, let alone to recover a plane.

George - How much time (hours) do you think it would take a first timer to strip, clean, recover, and refinish a 170?
mrpibb
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Post by mrpibb »

I keep my ragwing outside, I dont know if your familiar with Jersey hanger availabiltiy and rent... well I wont go there, but I have covers for the wings, cockpit and cowl and there doing a great job, the rest of the fuselage and tail is another story..let's just say i'll be ready for paint in a few years. The fabric is in good shape so when the time comes to repaint the metal, i'll probably just sand and throw a few coats of polytone on the wings.
Vic
N2609V
48 Ragwing
A Lanber 2097 12 gauge O/U Sporting
A happy go lucky Ruger Red label 20 ga
12N Aeroflex
Andover NJ
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" Air is free untill you have to move it" BB.
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

I'm not familiar with "polytone" but I'd mention a friend who bought a Stinson last year. It was a good purchase at a good price (for what he got) but it is fabric of course, and had been painted with Imron. :cry:
While it's not bad to look at, the problem is there are cracks in the paint at certain curvatures and since it's painted with a polyurethane it cannot be easily repaired. It'll probably require complete recover. :(
So,....just be sure that what you use can be easily repaired, repainted, etc. in the future.
As for how much time to re-cover wings.....beeliner....I really cannot say. Too many variables exist....and I've never actually done a 170 wing. I wouldn't want to mislead you. The question is better addressed to our entire group, I think. How bout it guys. How long?

(Meanwhile, keep in mind you're going to need a couple of helpers to remove and reinstall the wings. After you have the wings on sawhorses, you can cut the old fabric off yourself. You can do all the cleanup of the interior yourself. You'll need a genuine, qualified (that means not only someone licensed but also experienced in this kind of work) A&P/AI to inspect your structure and recommend needed repairs (if any) and you'll likely need someone to make those repairs (if any), then you'll be ready to do the actual fabric work. Up until this point, not including structural repairs, you've spent a little less than two days, but allow for the full weekend. Two weeks of your own time after normal work hours should have them basically re-covered. Another two days to take care of the unforseen details, such as painting/replacing inspection covers, lighting issues, and trimming, and you should be ready to paint them (if you intend to paint.) That's another issue of course. Will you paint them? Or leave them silver primed? And can you do the painting? Do you have the equipment and locale for it? Or will you farm that out?
After those issues are resolved, your buddies will need to come back over for a weekend to re-install the wings and do the rigging.
Your A&P/AI will need to come inspect and do the paperwork, an issue standing entirely alone. Some A&P/AI's know their client's capabilities and tooling well enough to turn them pretty loose and come back later to do a final inspection/sign-off. Some don't and want to be present during the entire process. Find out what yours will expect and will charge you before you get too deep into this excersize. The FAR's require the A&P/AI to supervise the work to the extent necessary to determine that the end product is airworthy. How much experience you have and how much experience your A&P/AI has working with you may greatly influence how much direct supervision is required, ...and thereby how much time you will be charged. A Flat-Rate for the project may be an option you wish to pursue.)
Just a few considerations. Don't let the details bog you down. It's a good project for an owner, and it isn't as difficult as you might imagine. Good luck.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
zero.one.victor
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Post by zero.one.victor »

George, if you're at all familiar with modern fabric work I'm surprised you don't know what polytone is. Check out the "covering" section of the Spruce catalog. "Poly-xxx" is the Polyfiber (formerly Stits) line of covering system products. There is poly-tak, poly-brush,poly-spray...poly-tone is the finish coat (color) for the Stits system. Good stuff, and an industry standard. Some experienced builders/restorers will use nothing else.

Eric
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Having just completed recovering the wings and tail feathers on my Cub I will make some observations about Georges post.

His estimites are pretty good except depending on where your located and what facilities you have available. If you have the right temperature and humidity levels and no wind you can do all of this out side with nothing more that saw horses to hold the wings. You will need at least 2 full days just to paint and you will need people around to help move/flip the wings.

On the other hand if you have a temperature controlled, lighted environment (paint booth) with wing fixtures to flip the wings you can probably do all the painting in one looong day

The process is fun and very forgiving and I can't imagine anyone smart enough to pilot the plane that can't figure it out.

Car paint finishes are no longer legal to put on a cloth covered airplane except unless there is a specifically approved process. Some of the airplane manufacturers like Bellanca have this approval. You just can't paint through silver and go get a can of Imron at you local paint store.

There are 3 processes that are approved for Polyester Dacron (PolyFiber, Ceconite and SuperFlite) cloth. No one unless you are a museum uses cotton anymore. The processes are the PolyFiber system, SuperFlite System VI, Urethane and Nitrate/Butyrate Dope. If you don't use the PolyFiber system or SuperFlite System VI then here are basically 2 manufacturers of dope products, Randolph and Superflite.

All of the systems work well. The key is that what ever system you use it must be approved for your plane (I think almost all planes are approved for these processes) and you must only use the products specifically manufactured for that system. You can't legally mix and match.
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3958v
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Post by 3958v »

Well you guys in front of your computers work faster than I did behind my spray gun. I took over two years to recover my wings. I also striped and polished the rest of the plane at the same time. If your like me and have other comitments like two kids, a wife, a small business and a local active eaa chapter it will take quite a while. But I am sure glad I did it even if it took four times longer than anticipated. I wanted a nice job so I did 17 cross coats of dope with five sandings interspersed. I always tell people who complain of a lack of time that time is the one thing we all get the same amount of in any given year. It is a matter of how you set your priorities. As far as the type of paint system you use it becomes like a wheel vs three point discussion. Dope takes time to spray but it is easiest to repair and it can be rejuvinated. I used it on my 170 and am using it again on a Piper J5 but I wouldn't knock the other systems out there. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

Hey Bill you are right other things will get in the way but it could be done in that time frame.

My "3 month" Cub wing recover took 5 years. If I'd had a garage that was not attached to my house I would have had it done in 4 months. I stopped work first because of our humid climate didn't cooperate or the timing of the weather with my free time didn't line up. Then I had hoped a situation allowing a better work environment (like an air conditioned/heated paint booth) would present itself. After 5 years it didn't and I finally built a temporary spray booth out of plastic sheet in my garage.

Wow. 17 cross-coats. For those not in the know that is the equivalent of 34 coats of paint.

I'm curious Bill if you can tell me how much weight your aircraft picked up after the recover (with 17 cross-coats) if it picked up any at all.
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3958v
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Post by 3958v »

Bruce I really don't know how much the weight changed but it weighed 1320 at completion with a full IFR panel 2 coms 50 gallon tanks and a complete interior. I am sure I have a little more weight than I need but I really like the finish. I saved on the rest of the plane by removing that paint. Bill K
Polished 48 170 Cat 22 JD 620 & Pug
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KMac
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Post by KMac »

Just food for thought - the polyfiber (Stits) is a lot less flammable than the ceconite (nitrate dope) process. I did tests on both. The variations in the dope process for the ceconite may change it though. :)
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Joe Moilanen
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Post by Joe Moilanen »

KMac, it sure brings back memories to see 22A in your avitar. I'm leaving for Idaho in the morning and will be gone until after the 4th. Probably going to camp at Moose Creek and play around from there. If anybody happens to be in the area, stop in.

Joe Moilanen
4518C
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

KMac wrote:Just food for thought - the polyfiber (Stits) is a lot less flammable than the ceconite (nitrate dope) process. I did tests on both. The variations in the dope process for the ceconite may change it though. :)
Nitrate is flammable which is why butyrate was developed. You only use nitrate as a primer coat because butyrate doesn't stick to the polyester Dacron (Ceconite) cloth. Once encapsulated by the butyrate dope I believe the flammability of the whole package is equivalent to the Polyfiber process which is vinyl based. Of course you do have to store the raw product prior to application.

I believe Ray Stits developed what is now the Polyfiber process not to eliminate the flammability issue but looking for an easier less time consuming and more durable process. Like the MMO argument many believe he was successful many don't. I'd use what ever process was more convenient to obtain as well as the availability of local expertise in the application.

Bill I was just curious how much weight each coat may have added. I used the minimum recommended coats of color for my Cub for this reason.
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GAHorn
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Post by GAHorn »

zero.one.victor wrote:George, if you're at all familiar with modern fabric work I'm surprised you don't know what polytone is. Check out the "covering" section of the Spruce catalog. "Poly-xxx" is the Polyfiber (formerly Stits) line of covering system products. There is poly-tak, poly-brush,poly-spray...poly-tone is the finish coat (color) for the Stits system. Good stuff, and an industry standard. Some experienced builders/restorers will use nothing else.

Eric
I didn't say I didn't know what it is, Eric. I said I'm not familiar with it. I've never used it. I don't know how repairable it is down the road when it's 15 years old and there's damage to repair. It's one of those things worth consideration when one is early in the choosing process.
Must be pretty simple, if Vic can just "sand and throw a few coats" on. :lol:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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