Opinions on C-170B value

sdunn · Post by **sdunn** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:51 am

Been away from the association for a long time but am now looking for a C-170B and would appreciate opinions on plane values. Similar planes in Trade A Plane avg $45,000 to $46,000 with slightly lower engine times. The AOPA site seems to me to be real low on estimated value on these planes. Looked at a 1952 B model today that is around 3000 TT with 600 SMOH. excellent paint though a little unsual. Average interior but airframe is way above average and I do mean way above. I could not find any problems on plane except it needs new flex brake lines and new brake discs. Has terra nav and com radios and narco xponder. Sigtronics intercom. I want to make a really fair offer on plane owner has not advertised it and has not set a price. Airframe is extremely clean inside.
Engine compartment is very clean older bendix mags, but 60 amp alt.

Also is my old friend Ed Booth still around?

Steve Dunn

AR Dave · Post by **AR Dave** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:47 am

I would think that most 170-B's, in good shape, are carrying $40,000 collision these days. My 55 is about like you described, 600 SMOH, etc. etc.. Wouldn't sell it for $45K, $50K might! That's my technical analysis!

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:38 pm

Eddie Booth is still listed in our Directory in SC.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:18 pm

"Fair price" and "value" both have two definitions: what the market rate seems to be, and what it's worth to ME (or you). The two figures may be miles apart. I can't hardly believe what the price of nice 170's has been doing over the past 8 years. People asking $50K (& more!) for a stock-engined B! Outrageous!
Of course, that seems very reassonable after you look at what they're asking (& presumably getting) for a nice 180 or Super Cub. Double outrageous! I recently got thinking again about getting a 180 when a friend told me about one that was gonna be coming up for sale. Good solid 53 model with R engine, "cosmetically challenged" paint job, extremely challenged interior. Talked to the owner, she had been advised by some aviation guru of hers to ask $70K and be ready to dicker just a bit. Unbelievable!
But in today's market she just might get that $70K. It's sure not worth that to me though. Reminds me of today's booming market for homes, at least in western Washington & southern California.
And everyone says the economy is shot to hell-- well,I don't buy it.

Eric

Post by **GAHorn** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:43 pm

zero.one.victor wrote:" I can't hardly believe what the price of nice 170's has been doing over the past 8 years. People asking $50K (& more!) for a stock-engined B! Outrageous!

Eric

" Asking" and "getting" are certainly two different things, but it seems to me that the big unknown factor in making such comparisons is the real status of the airframe's health.
A good looking, recently re-ragged, and painted airplane with good avionics may bring high $40's with a mid-time engine and no one would doubt the value.
But that wouldn't reveal the value of an otherwise identical airplane that also had had it's cables all replaced, it's pulleys all replaced, it's hyd/fuel lines all replaced, new motor mounts, new plexiglas all around, complete new exhaust system installed, every inch of old fabric-covered wiring replaced with new Tefzel wiring, all instruments overhauled, seats not just re-covered, but completely stripped, re-sprung, re-foamed, frames bead-blasted/painted, new seat rollers and locks, ...not just good avionics,...but new, recent design avionics instead of Michel plug-n-plays or old tech stuff or out of mfr/un-supportable stuff (like Terra)

I'd say the second example is worth far more than $50K in value. My airplane is insured for $70K and I don't think it could be replaced for that considering the under-the-skin value. (The insurance complany didn't believe it either until I showed them the invoices, 337's and log entries. Then they tried to sell me an even larger policy.)

I'd hate to actually have to make an ins. claim on it and it'd take more than that to buy it from me. (In other words, it's not for sale.)
But those underneath-the-skin values are what a buyer should look for, in my opinion. It's easy to fix the paint or engine,...but just consider what an ongoing headache exhaust, wiring, windows, or other such repairs can become and how much it all adds up each annual.

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:31 pm

Just don't believe a person could take an average 170 and refurbish or restore it and have less than $70,000 invested not including their labor. (Replacing anything that isn't near perfect) It's an opportunity to get upside down on an airplane until the right buyer happens buy. Would be surprised if some RV builders don't end up with more invested in their finished RV than it would have cost to buy something like a nice Comanche 250 and they could have been flying those 5 years instead of pounding rivits. We as an aviation community are very lucky there are craftsmen who are either retired or just have the "want to" to restore some of the older models of the fleet. IMHO

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:57 pm

It's an old saying, but asking and selling are like fishing
and catching. Another old saying; There's a butt for
every seat!

sdunn · Post by **sdunn** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:25 am

Thanks Guys, especially about the info on Ed Booth. We both lived in Atlanta for awhile and kept our planes on a private 2600 ft grass strip east of Stone Mountain. My L-19 got out of there loaded a lot easier than
Ed did. Ed had one of the most beautiful 170s I have ever seen. I also understand about the cost of restoration. I have lost money on every plane I ever restored including the last L-19 I sold in September. It does appear to me that planes are not selling well right now many of them have been for sale a long time and that includes 140s, 170s, and 180s. The market for C-180s seems to have taken a real nose dive there are more on the market than I have ever seen and none of them are selling.
I had a late model 1954 B model and I did like cowlings better than the earlier models.

AR Dave · Post by **AR Dave** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:37 am

If I was selling a taildragger, I'd turn North to Alaska. Send an ad to Anchorage Daily News and expect buyers to meet me upon arrival. Friend of mine sold his 180 a few weeks back for $115K in a few days. Then he bought a Cub for $60K from a guy who thought these prices are outrages. He sold the cub for $80K the week after that, not trying to. Supply and Demand!

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:11 am

Sounds good, except the proper chain of events (practically speaking)
are:

We (lower 48 US folks) sell a worn out 180 (170, whatever) to our fine
friends in Canada. They (Canooks) use up / wear out these airplanes
some more and subsequently sell them to our fine friends in Alasaka.
Once our fine friends in Alaska are done with said airframes (further
wearing them out), they pop up for sale on Trade-A-Plane, ASO and other
sites being offered back to us poor SOBs in the lower 48 who are looking
to buy a decent 180/170/whatever!

Supply and demand at it's best.... Just don't get into the wrong line
on the demand side, and you'll (likely) do OK.

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:07 pm

sdunn wrote: It does appear to me that planes are not selling well right now many of them have been for sale a long time and that includes 140s, 170s, and 180s. The market for C-180s seems to have taken a real nose dive there are more on the market than I have ever seen and none of them are selling.

You could be seeing the effect of the time of year. It can change a 170 price by $5k or more. The buyers will come out of the woodwork in a month or so and all the good planes will sell quick.

funseventy · Post by **funseventy** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:07 pm

I sold my 170B in the winter for 54K with a stock engine.
It was for sale on Barnstormers for one week before a guy bought it for the full price sight unseen and paid me to deliver it. He said that good airplanes were disappearing as fast as they showed up and he didn't want to miss out.

And like someone else spelled out I probably had between 58 and 60 in it but who would've expected a 170 at that price to go so fast. I had 3 other people interested at that price and it was going to go without a doubt. My buyer was smart to buy as fast as he did.

I bought it 3 years ago for 34K needing almost everything but with exceptionally good history. When looking to buy I wanted to pay 50 for a turn key deal but the ones listed for that price weren't worth bringing home and that lead me down the path I took.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:29 am

So Kelly, you actually went thru with it, eh? Well, congratulations for getting it sold quick.
Now what? You gonna buy something else, or just drive the company Kodiak around? Do you stll have that Sonerai?

Eric

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:16 pm

I bought my 52 in fall 2003 for 15K it had a 125 hour engine and nice paint and interior and recent radios. Nice, except it was put on its back and made a mess of the wings and cowl. The previous owner had paid over 40K for it and it looked worth it. After going through the engine I found that it was done by a moron and needed to be rebuilt. As I tore deeper into the mess, I ended up doing the job that George Horn described. I'll have just over 60K into this thing and that is not including my labor. I agree with Mr. Horn's assessment that if you buy one of those reasonably priced 170's for less than 40K that you will probably have a plane that will nickle and dime you to death and still likely be worth less than 40K long after you have dumped 20K into it, and have spent a lot of time working on it or watching somebody work on it instead of flying it. If done properly, a fresh 170 is worth 65K all day long.

C170BDan · Post by **C170BDan** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:59 pm

I have heard it said.... it is worth what someone will pay for it. Kelly's sale is an example. At different fly-ins this seems to come up often about how much we paid and what we think they are worth. I have a good, clean, solid airplane... I have invested in an engine overhaul... so at this point as far as major expenses I could sell mine for REAL close to what I have in it. Obviously this is not counting gas, oil, hangar, insurance costs. This will be my 10th year of owning the 170 and I feel like I got a super deal when I paid $30K for mine. Wouldnt sell it for less that $50K today.