Original Paint schemes

[GAHorn]

Alan…(may I call you Alan?)… I may be imagining this…but I detect you might feel hesitant about submitting your airplane for judging because of minor…and I Do Mean MINOR… diff’s from “original” scheme.

Let any hesitancy DISAPPEAR. These sort of issues are not disqualifying in any way. I hope to see you AND your Gorgeous 170 at convention SOON!
(But please…. arrive Right-Side UP!)

[AWilson]

Thanks, you’re sense is serving you well. Your comments are reassuring.

[c170b53]

At last years convention our master judge Bruce Fenstermacher contracted Covid and a replacement judge (white cane in hand) was pressed into service. I tapped my way around our airplanes (Bruce has tied to school me in the past as much as he could) and did the best I could do. In the past Steve J. would have a lock on the original title, now it seems its open to whomever shows up. I’m hoping Bruce resumes the reins again this year.

[n2582d]

This photo - taken before sugar and fat were invented - is from Larry Westin's collection. In the link he gives this description: "Ground view of Cessna 170A, N9197A, construction number 18958, manufactured in 1949. Look closely to see the small metal flaps unique to the "A" model 170. This is a Cessna publicity photo with a pretty lady."

Note too, the "Cessna" logo under the propeller and, above the air filter, "170" with wings. Unlike the Skyways magazine cover photo, this has bare aluminum rather than painted wheel pants. I also see, hanging vertically behind the rudder an antenna wire.

(Bruce, maybe this entry should be transferred to the photo documentation corner of the Mx Library?)

[GAHorn]

Those unpainted wheelpants are also mounted in a slight upward attitude…unlike most Cessna docs. ( I posted it as requested. Thx Gary)

[n2582d]

Thanks George, but it should be with the 1949 rather than 1950 photos.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Very late to comment here to Alan. The answer to your basic question would be it depends on were you are having your airplane judged, who the judges are and what other 170s are present and being judged at the same time.

Being judged at Oshkosh and being judged anywhere else including a TIC170A convention are two completely different things. At Oshkosh you would receive down grades for the under wing paint for example and they may even get into measuring exactly were your paint lines are. All this would not necessarily happen at any other judging event I know of.

I can tell you from the pictures that your plane would be judged very high at a TIC170A convention. At many conventions it would be a winner. There are however a very few 170s who might show up at a given convention that seemed to have just rolled off the assembly line the day before. Likely the judges would recognize the difference and you might not get a plaque.

What I'm trying to say is at 99% of the venues, 99% of the time, your plane would be judged very well.

[GAHorn]

Thanks George, but it should be with the 1949 rather than 1950 photos.

Oops. Correct, SNs 18730-19199 were ‘49 model serial range according to “The 170 Book”…despite FAA records which often claim otherwise based upon actual Airworthiness Cert./Delivery Dates.

If SN were unknown, what difference exists in paint schemes between ‘49 and ‘50? (This might illustrate the judges problems of task.)

[n2582d]

...If SN were unknown, what difference exists in paint schemes between ‘49 and ‘50? (This might illustrate the judges problems of task.)

The primary difference I see between the '49 and '50 paint schemes is how the stripe begins and ends. The '49 line with the "170" on it starts at the rear of the cowling. On the '50 it appears to be 3" wide continuation of the cowl grill. At the tail on the ‘49 the trim line remains about the same as width as it goes under the vertical fin. On the '50 the stripe widens. What I'm having a hard time determining is the difference between the 1950 and the 1951 C-170A paint schemes. Can anyone offer some clues? Bonus points: What's the plane doing on a tail stand? Answer: Compass swing.

1949 C-170A s/n 18955
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1950 C-170A N5752C s/n 19706
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1951 C-170A N1424D s/n 20136
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[dstates]

Gary,

I have a 51 A with serial number 20118 and here is it's paint scheme. Obviously the N number was added to the fuselage.

[n2582d]

Doug,
Thanks for that photo. It looks like the trim paint on the 1951 C-170A, N1424D, in my previous post differs from yours in that your trim ends at the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer instead of wrapping over the fuselage. Your trim matches that which Bruce shows here on N1418D, (s/n 20001). N1396D's (s/n 19972) stripe also ends at the horizontal stabilizer. I'll edit my previous post once we are certain which version is correct.

Click to Enlarge

[GAHorn]

Several issues arise in this discussion. One, is that most of the examples we’re viewing are re-painted airplanes…not necessarily exactly following the original scheme. Second, is the declared year-model (as previously discussed) does not necessarily follow the year-model design. Third is the minor changes that have taken place even during production which Cessna failed to document in their own sales publications. (Example, wheel fairing mounting angles and paint.)

But it’s a fun endeavor to try to mimic originality (a subject most know I’m fond of…. however I’m not the strict-originality person some folks think. It’s Your Airplane…you get to do what You wish.) And such minor changes are unlikely to affect the judges choices when it comes to our convention-judging.

Even the Oshkosh Grand Winners have diverged in some minor ways from original. (An example is in the perfection achieved by owners who have pursued originality “perfection”…. and painted the stripes Before the doors were installed, which takes extra effort I do not believe Cessna ever practiced. If the fuselage behind/beneath the uppper door hinge is painted…. that ain’t original, IMO.)

[n2582d]

George,
I have to agree; this is a quixotic quest to find the difference, if any, between the paint schemes of the 1950 and 1951 C-170A's. Google has every issue of Flying magazine for the year 1951. Surely a Cessna advertisement in one of those issues would clearly show whether the trim stripe wraps over the rear of the fuselage or just ends at the front of the horizontal stabilizer? Of course not. Every advert throughout 1951 shows N9748A (s/n 19209), a 1950 C-170A. The Owner's Manuals on file in the Mx Library aren't broken down to individual years of 170A models; they're all lumped in one manual. With the caveats you rightly outlined, it is interesting to see how owners have repainted their aircraft. The 170A was offered with exterior trim colors of Insignia Red and Cessna Metallic Green. The vast majority of original looking paint schemes I see on airport-data.com of 1951 C-170's are red. There I see nine 1951 aircraft where the trim line wraps over the rear fuselage. The oldest photo I find was this one taken in 1961. I'm not convinced that is original paint. I've only found five where the line ends at the front of the horizontal stab. I thought maybe I could find evidence that the original paint scheme changed mid-year but the serial numbers appear to be a random mix between those two styles.

Click twice to enlarge

[n2582d]

Hey how about this picture. It came with the mountain of stuff I got when I bought the plane a couple of weeks ago. It is a laminated actual phot (because I can feel the thick edge under the lamination) of a 170A. In front of the Cessna Aircraft Co.office! Maybe it is a actual Cessna promotional photo? Reason I am saying this is because it shows some so called "Businessmen" standing there with briefcases. I believe they tried to promote it that way back then.

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It appears that this was a 1949 C-170A (N9717A, s/n 19178) masquerading as a 1950 model. FAA records show that it was exported to Uruguay.