Personal max crosswind component ?

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:45 pm

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys consider your personal max crosswind components. On Saturday I plan to fly to a barbecue to be held at field with a nice wide 2600 ft grass runway that runs East-West. The wind is forecast to be 15-20 mph from the South.
Rudy

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:00 pm

My personal max has been 15-25 knots (gusty) about
60-80 degrees off the nose. Not a great deal of fun....
Needed a shot of whiskey after that landing!

Based upon actual conditions of course, you might
want to use less flap than you normally do (like no flaps,
or perhaps 10 degrees).

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:48 pm

If the grass is wide enough,you can lessen the crosswind effect by landing across it at an angle. There's some grass at my airport (not an official runway,but I won't tell if you don't) that is perfect for landing into a northwest wind. Trouble is,when the wind really blows it's out of the southeast,and the approach to land that way on the grass is cluttered with trees,airport buildings,etc.......

Eric

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:41 pm

Thanks Eric. That runway is not really wide enough to make much of a catty corner, but every little bit helps-
Bela, I do recall your description of a pretty hairy landing a while ago- Like you, I land with either 30/40 degrees of flap or none at all.
70 degrees accross the bow at 20 k translates to about a 19 k (or 22 mph) x-wind component. If it's not very gusty I should be OK on Saturday.
Rudy

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:53 pm

Agreed.

I think the 170 actually has quite good crosswind landing
capabilities (good control response, effective rudder, etc.).

The thing I wrestle with is gusty conditions.... The airplane
is so light that just when you think you've got it made and
she's all "played out" as it were, a 10 knot gust comes along
and puts you 5+ feet back into the air!

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

Joe Moilanen · Post by **Joe Moilanen** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:13 pm

In my experience, the less flaps you use in a cross wind, the better off you are. I always use 20 degrees on most landings and still consistantly make the first turn off at 600'. 20 degrees offers you the best go-around setting and the faster you land, the more leverage you have against drift. In a strong crosswind I do a wheel landing with 20 degrees and once the mains are on, I've got braking action to help with directional control as I slow down. If things aren't looking good, I've got flying speed in my back pocket and a little back pressure and throttle and I'm safely flying again...no harm done. I can remember one occasion in Burley, Idaho with 30+ crosswind and I had to fly it on with no flaps at about 90 and use a lot of brakes to keep things straight (I relate on the post landing shot of whisky).

Joe Moilanen
4518C

N73087 · Post by **N73087** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:00 pm

Sounds like the airstrip might have trees lining it. The actual crosswind below treetop level might be a lot less. The fun comes in transitioning.

dacker · Post by **dacker** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:22 am

Bela, I think you hit on the most common scenario that I have experienced.
I find it quiet a chore to do a wheelie in gusty conditions, especially in my A model, it is just a little bit unstable without the wing dihedral. I have found that I usually have to do an aircraft carrier three point with a lot of differential breaking in order to keep it on the centerline on the few occasions that I have been in high crosswind/gust conditions.
I sort of use a use a limit of 12-17 knots direct crosswind, coupled with how gutsy/current/desperate to fly I am. It has been several months since I have flown my 170 so I sort of feel like I am only talking hypothetically.
David

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:12 am

N73087 wrote:Sounds like the airstrip might have trees lining it. The actual crosswind below treetop level might be a lot less. The fun comes in transitioning.

Been there, but have also been at various mountain strips where
trees or no trees didn't matter. Once you got her down, you had
trouble setting your tent up, never mind landing the airplane!

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

N170BP · Post by **N170BP** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:16 am

dacker wrote:Bela, I think you hit on the most common scenario that I have experienced.
I find it quiet a chore to do a wheelie in gusty conditions, especially in my A model, it is just a little bit unstable without the wing dihedral. I have found that I usually have to do an aircraft carrier three point with a lot of differential breaking in order to keep it on the centerline on the few occasions that I have been in high crosswind/gust conditions.
I sort of use a use a limit of 12-17 knots direct crosswind, coupled with how gutsy/current/desperate to fly I am. It has been several months since I have flown my 170 so I sort of feel like I am only talking hypothetically.
David

There's nothing like that feeling / old saying: Better to be on the
ground wishing you were in the air, than vice-versa! Found myself
(with a buddy in a 180) in that predicament one day last winter.
We decided to go fly to a particular place, and no sooner did
we get airborne, we were both wishing we had instead stayed on the
ground and cracked a beer or two.

Sometimes I think I have it easy with my B model 170. I've
got bunches of flap if I want/need it, dihedral to keep me honest,
a nice big fin/rudder that either works for you, or against you,
depending upon the circumstances. I landed a Champ once
in challenging cross-winds, and I never worked so hard in my
life to get that danged thing on the ground without scraping
a wingtip. I did learn that heel brakes are for parking the
airplane, and are not to be used while flying/landing the darned
thing!

Anyway, the gusts are what make crosswind landings in the 170
a challange. The 180 (with it's heavier wing loading) is a much
more manageable / predictable animal.

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:25 am

Bela, you're right about the 180 being a more manageable beast. For several years I made my living flying 180's in Jamaica, using short, mountainous strips with pretty wicked crosswinds and gusts and never worried about it. Of course I was 40 years younger then...
Rudy

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:46 pm

N170BP wrote:
dacker wrote:Bela, I think you hit on the most common scenario that I have experienced.
I find it quiet a chore to do a wheelie in gusty conditions, especially in my A model, it is just a little bit unstable without the wing dihedral. I have found that I usually have to do an aircraft carrier three point with a lot of differential breaking in order to keep it on the centerline on the few occasions that I have been in high crosswind/gust conditions.
I sort of use a use a limit of 12-17 knots direct crosswind, coupled with how gutsy/current/desperate to fly I am. It has been several months since I have flown my 170 so I sort of feel like I am only talking hypothetically.
David
There's nothing like that feeling / old saying: Better to be on the
ground wishing you were in the air, than vice-versa! Found myself
(with a buddy in a 180) in that predicament one day last winter.
We decided to go fly to a particular place, and no sooner did
we get airborne, we were both wishing we had instead stayed on the
ground and cracked a beer or two.

Sometimes I think I have it easy with my B model 170. I've
got bunches of flap if I want/need it, dihedral to keep me honest,
a nice big fin/rudder that either works for you, or against you,
depending upon the circumstances. I landed a Champ once
in challenging cross-winds, and I never worked so hard in my
life to get that danged thing on the ground without scraping
a wingtip. I did learn that heel brakes are for parking the
airplane, and are not to be used while flying/landing the darned
thing!

Anyway, the gusts are what make crosswind landings in the 170
a challange. The 180 (with it's heavier wing loading) is a much
more manageable / predictable animal.

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

Find it very hard to believe that wing dihedral has any influence on landing. Rapid control movements during gusty crosswind landings would cancel out the slow effect of wing dihedral. Same with turbulence in cruise flight.

rudymantel · Post by **rudymantel** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:35 pm

I went to that fly-in barbecue on Saturday. The wind was an easily manageable 10knot crosswind on a nice grass runway. The greater hazard was all that cholesterol ! (But sooo good !)
Rudy

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:42 am

There are some things that affect an airplane's tendency to ground-loop. Wing-tip fuel tanks place mass/momentum at the outer wings and can increase the level of difficulty in straightening things out. Once that mass is in motion...it tends to keep going.
Same thing with aft CG. Rear loaded airplanes are more likely to ground loop in gusty conditions. That mass, once in motion, is more momentum the rudder has to bring back into line.
The only airplane I've ever ground-looped was my Aeronca Chief, during gusty cross-winds, with it's rear tank full of fuel, and it's lousy, cable-operated heel brakes only on the left side....when I was in the right seat trying to convince another pilot that taildraggers aren't all that bad!

My pro-pilot friend was afraid of taildraggers, and I'd convinced him to check out in my Chief. "It's easy!", I'd said.
Fortunately nothing was hurt but my pride, as we found ourselves facing back the way we'd come, sitting out in the grass, with the prop flicking long grass blades up into the air and gently wafting back down across the cowl.

"Yep", he said. "That was sure easy!"

I always kept the rear tank empty on gusty days, after that.

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:08 am

The proper line in such a situation is "see--these things almost land themselves". The proper comment under a picture of such a situation (or worse!) is "real pilots fly taildraggers".

Eric