Being a VFR pilot with almost 200 hrs I never flew in IMC
Today I went out for the first time with my CFII to fly in IMC. It was a great experience to be more confident in case of an emergency. I would suggest everybody to do the same. Next on my list is basic aerobatics.
Flying in the soup
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Eric,
Thanks for your comments but I would like to point out a few things:
1) I do not think combining IMC & aerobatics would work as to fly IMC you need to be in an IFR flight plan in contact with ATC. And I do not think ATC would allow aerobatic maneuvers.
2) The CFI secretly turning the fuel off would not be advisable as it could cause vapor lock or not able to turn the fuel on again.
3) An emergency landing in IMC on the airport would not be advisable before you could actually see the runway.
Please feel free to send any additional positive feedback.
Thanks and best regards,
Victor
Thanks for your comments but I would like to point out a few things:
1) I do not think combining IMC & aerobatics would work as to fly IMC you need to be in an IFR flight plan in contact with ATC. And I do not think ATC would allow aerobatic maneuvers.
2) The CFI secretly turning the fuel off would not be advisable as it could cause vapor lock or not able to turn the fuel on again.
3) An emergency landing in IMC on the airport would not be advisable before you could actually see the runway.
Please feel free to send any additional positive feedback.
Thanks and best regards,
Victor
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Curtis Brown
- Posts: 273
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:47 pm
Charles Lindbergh claimed to have spun down through an undercast on a dark, snowy night of flying the mail. The alternative was his usual, bail-out, hope for the best, and let the Commerce Dept look for the mail bags. 
I've spun down through an undercast in my younger foolish days. But that was back when West Texas had hundreds of miles of uncontrolled airspace. (No IFR clearance is req'd for instrument flight in uncontrolled airspace.) It'd be hard to find any uncontrolled airspace that has sufficient altitude to it these days.
(Don't try this at home. Results may vary. Any resemblance to actual persons coincidental and unintended.)
I've spun down through an undercast in my younger foolish days. But that was back when West Texas had hundreds of miles of uncontrolled airspace. (No IFR clearance is req'd for instrument flight in uncontrolled airspace.) It'd be hard to find any uncontrolled airspace that has sufficient altitude to it these days.
(Don't try this at home. Results may vary. Any resemblance to actual persons coincidental and unintended.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Victor, I don't think that our friend Eric is suggesting you do something dangerous or that could dammage one of these wonderful birds.
Maybe what is implied is "under the hood", with a competent check pilot or instructor. Or in conditions that does not have a defined reference to horizon or terrain (ex: smog over a large lake). He puts you in unusual attitudes or the old do a few steep climbing turns and hands you the controls in level flight to have you experience disorientation, etc. Have you climb through a cloud layer, spiral back down through one, etc. At safe altitude and within gliding distance of a safe landing, simulate a pitot or vacum loss; yes, shut off the fuel, etc. And if you want to get close to IMC simulation, don't do this on a nice easy day, do it with turbulence or gusts (reasonable). For those who have flown IMC can tell you that Mother Nature usually adds all these little spices, just to keep you on your toes and add to the stress.
I don't think that Eric meant snap rolls, loops, hammeheads, etc...
JD
Maybe what is implied is "under the hood", with a competent check pilot or instructor. Or in conditions that does not have a defined reference to horizon or terrain (ex: smog over a large lake). He puts you in unusual attitudes or the old do a few steep climbing turns and hands you the controls in level flight to have you experience disorientation, etc. Have you climb through a cloud layer, spiral back down through one, etc. At safe altitude and within gliding distance of a safe landing, simulate a pitot or vacum loss; yes, shut off the fuel, etc. And if you want to get close to IMC simulation, don't do this on a nice easy day, do it with turbulence or gusts (reasonable). For those who have flown IMC can tell you that Mother Nature usually adds all these little spices, just to keep you on your toes and add to the stress.
I don't think that Eric meant snap rolls, loops, hammeheads, etc...
JD
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Hey guys,I was joking. You know,joking? The acro I was referring to was the kind you inadvertantly perform when spatially disoriented--you know,the kind that leads to a "graveyard spiral" or to the airplane coming out of the bottom of the clouds in several pieces?
I've done a little "IMC dual"--you're right,it is great for building confidence. It's also a whole lot different than when you're scared & in the clouds for real,by yourself with no instructor,maybe with your family on board.
I'd hate to see anyone get too confident & lose their fear of "VFR into IMC". After all, that's killed lots of pilots,including instrument-rated ones!
Eric
I've done a little "IMC dual"--you're right,it is great for building confidence. It's also a whole lot different than when you're scared & in the clouds for real,by yourself with no instructor,maybe with your family on board.
I'd hate to see anyone get too confident & lose their fear of "VFR into IMC". After all, that's killed lots of pilots,including instrument-rated ones!
Eric
A rather "testy" moment occured several years ago when I was chief pilot of a dept that had a dozen pilots or so.
While at FlightSafety, and in the Hawker simulator, we were practicing "unusual attitudes" like was just mentioned. It occured to me that unusual attitudes are not that difficult during training because we are expecting them, so when one of my crewmembers was having his turn in the left seat and I was playing FO, I set him up with the complicity of the sim instructor.
The typical scenario was for the flying pilot (left seat usually) to put his head down and not look while the non-flying pilot took the airplane sim through some gyrations and then called out "Your airplane", at which time the victim would look up, take over, and make a recovery (hopefully without problems.) In the set-up I'd arranged, while the flying pilot was with his head down, the sim instructor would pull the circuit breaker on the flying pilots attitude gyro (art. horizon). I put the airplane thru some gyrations and actually returned it to level flight, then called out "your airplane".
The result was usually a wild ride and sometimes ended in a crash. In the urgency to return the airplane in a "normal" attitude the flying pilot would not notice his horizon gyro was not responding, and he'd also not notice the red failure flag of the instrument. The result was pretty violent sometimes as he tried to regain control of the aircraft.
When the excersize was over, the flying pilot was pretty mad at me for having performed an "unfair" trick on him.
But I felt it was a good excersize. I believe whenever unusual attitudes are encountered, the solution should include immediately suspecting your primary flight instruments. What other reason might an experienced instrument pilot suddenly find himself disoriented and in an unusual attitude? And if you DO get yourself into a really unusual attitude, aren't you also likely to find you've exceeded the limits of your attitude gyro and rendered it perhaps useless?
I believe the correct solution is to scan ALL cockpit instruments INCLUDING your co-pilots instruments, if any.
And if you find yourself suffering from vertigo or spatial disorientation then hand the aircraft over to your crewmember and monitor HIS performance. It's always easier to monitor someone else.
Just a scenario I felt was educational, and thought I'd pass it along.
While at FlightSafety, and in the Hawker simulator, we were practicing "unusual attitudes" like was just mentioned. It occured to me that unusual attitudes are not that difficult during training because we are expecting them, so when one of my crewmembers was having his turn in the left seat and I was playing FO, I set him up with the complicity of the sim instructor.
The typical scenario was for the flying pilot (left seat usually) to put his head down and not look while the non-flying pilot took the airplane sim through some gyrations and then called out "Your airplane", at which time the victim would look up, take over, and make a recovery (hopefully without problems.) In the set-up I'd arranged, while the flying pilot was with his head down, the sim instructor would pull the circuit breaker on the flying pilots attitude gyro (art. horizon). I put the airplane thru some gyrations and actually returned it to level flight, then called out "your airplane".
The result was usually a wild ride and sometimes ended in a crash. In the urgency to return the airplane in a "normal" attitude the flying pilot would not notice his horizon gyro was not responding, and he'd also not notice the red failure flag of the instrument. The result was pretty violent sometimes as he tried to regain control of the aircraft.
When the excersize was over, the flying pilot was pretty mad at me for having performed an "unfair" trick on him.
But I felt it was a good excersize. I believe whenever unusual attitudes are encountered, the solution should include immediately suspecting your primary flight instruments. What other reason might an experienced instrument pilot suddenly find himself disoriented and in an unusual attitude? And if you DO get yourself into a really unusual attitude, aren't you also likely to find you've exceeded the limits of your attitude gyro and rendered it perhaps useless?
I believe the correct solution is to scan ALL cockpit instruments INCLUDING your co-pilots instruments, if any.
And if you find yourself suffering from vertigo or spatial disorientation then hand the aircraft over to your crewmember and monitor HIS performance. It's always easier to monitor someone else.
Just a scenario I felt was educational, and thought I'd pass it along.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Back in "the olden days" in the Air Force, the manouvers described by George done in the sim were done in an airplane. We didn't have any sims other than the very rudimentary Link Trainers.
In the airplane the gyros were caged and recovery was always done on rate group. Pretty sporty ride sometimes, especially in a four engine type.
In the airplane the gyros were caged and recovery was always done on rate group. Pretty sporty ride sometimes, especially in a four engine type.
BL
We teach our Tweet students a simple three-step procedure for IMC unusual attitude recoveries:
recognize
VERIFY
Recover
You gotta be sure your guages are telling the truth before you start moving things around!
An old trick in the T-38 sim is to give the stud a blocked static port, have him close his eyes, and do an immelman. As the altitude increases (this maneuver takes 10,000 feet vertical) the airpseed indicator pegs at the barber poll. He gets the jet about 30,000 feet and 100 kts but they think they are going like a bat out of hell. Instincts take over and they rip the throttles to idle to control the "speed". The result is dual engine failure to deal with after they get the jet back under control
recognize
VERIFY
Recover
You gotta be sure your guages are telling the truth before you start moving things around!
An old trick in the T-38 sim is to give the stud a blocked static port, have him close his eyes, and do an immelman. As the altitude increases (this maneuver takes 10,000 feet vertical) the airpseed indicator pegs at the barber poll. He gets the jet about 30,000 feet and 100 kts but they think they are going like a bat out of hell. Instincts take over and they rip the throttles to idle to control the "speed". The result is dual engine failure to deal with after they get the jet back under control
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
Of course I ment to say we block the pitot tube. It does make more sense that way, doesn't it.When we flew down from Alaska, our Pitot Tube plugged with ice several days. I wasn't bothered by it (too much!), don't really remember what I watched.
I think I just kept her at 2450 rpm's and level. Also remember watching the ground speed on the GPS. So what is the proper procedure for when you lose your airspeed indicator?
I think I just kept her at 2450 rpm's and level. Also remember watching the ground speed on the GPS. So what is the proper procedure for when you lose your airspeed indicator?
Fly attitude. After all, that's what we're really using the airspeed indicator for., right?...as a poor indicator of attitude (in combination/consultation with other inputs.)
Go out and practice a few basic attitude solutions. For example (confirm what YOUR airplane does, these are just hypotheses): full throttle and 5-degrees nose up equals a climb at 80 mph. Full throttle and nose level equals 115-120 mph. 2200 rpm and nose level equals a 100 mph gentle descent. 1700 rpm and nose level with half flaps equals 70 mph glide (as in a landing approach).
The day your airspeed fails, these sort of memory items can be very useful.
Go out and practice a few basic attitude solutions. For example (confirm what YOUR airplane does, these are just hypotheses): full throttle and 5-degrees nose up equals a climb at 80 mph. Full throttle and nose level equals 115-120 mph. 2200 rpm and nose level equals a 100 mph gentle descent. 1700 rpm and nose level with half flaps equals 70 mph glide (as in a landing approach).
The day your airspeed fails, these sort of memory items can be very useful.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
I am not too worried about the pitot tube either, as I've flown with it blocked by internal ice. While encountering rime ice in November over Kentucky, I did worry about losing the AI and DG. Has anyone ever had the venturi tubes ice up enough to prevent vacuum and kill the gyro instruments? Airspeed indicator is one thing, but I would hate to loose the vacuum gyro instruments as well...especially since there is no vacuum gauge and thus no way to know the AI is dying and flopping over until everything else starts to go down hill. The only usable instrument at that point for attitude control is the turn coordinator and I think it is useless for anything beyond a standard rate turn and of course useless for pitch.
John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV