I am planning on a flight to a ski resort(Ruidoso-NM).
This will be the first time I adventure flying to the mountains and temperatures below freezing. I have 170 hrs TT almost all in flat south Texas and will be flying VFR only.
What should I be considering?
I currently use aeroshell 100W I believe I should change it?
How to clean the plane from ice and snow the day we plan to leave?
Any other thing to consider?
Thanks for your help.
Flying to a Ski Resort
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
One of the things I would strongly consider is, if you are not able to rent heated hangar space, build a pre-heater with a small camping stove and take a blanket to place over the cowl while pre-heating.
The other thing is dependent on the altitude you will be landing at. The ground speed and ground roll is a lot different at higher elevations than in Texas. At our altitudes here, at touchdown, if the airspeed says 60, that's about what you are going. Up at 8 or 9,000 feet, the airspeed will still say 60, but you will be touching down at more like 90. Thus, your ground roll will be longer and your visual clues will be different. No big deal, as long as you are ready and expecting the differences.
At that altitude you will lean on the ground as if you would down in Texas up at that altitude.
Have fun and enjoy the scenery and flying.
The other thing is dependent on the altitude you will be landing at. The ground speed and ground roll is a lot different at higher elevations than in Texas. At our altitudes here, at touchdown, if the airspeed says 60, that's about what you are going. Up at 8 or 9,000 feet, the airspeed will still say 60, but you will be touching down at more like 90. Thus, your ground roll will be longer and your visual clues will be different. No big deal, as long as you are ready and expecting the differences.
At that altitude you will lean on the ground as if you would down in Texas up at that altitude.
Have fun and enjoy the scenery and flying.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
I don't know where you're based or what the winter weather is like there,but if it was me I'd switch to a multigrade oil--I use Phillips XC20-50. Preheating may not be practical,especially if you're not gonna do the hard-winter thing very often. IMHO preheating with a stove or blowpot can be dangerous,if you don't have any experience with it. Certainly something to pay very close attention to,especially your first time.
Make sure you don't try to take off with ice or frost on the wings--even just a little! Turn your aircraft to tail into the sun (if there is any) the morning you plan to leave,to help melt the frost on top. I have heard of using a rope slung over the wing (fore-to-aft) to de-ice the top of the wing by scuffing it back & forth,but never done it.
Eric
Make sure you don't try to take off with ice or frost on the wings--even just a little! Turn your aircraft to tail into the sun (if there is any) the morning you plan to leave,to help melt the frost on top. I have heard of using a rope slung over the wing (fore-to-aft) to de-ice the top of the wing by scuffing it back & forth,but never done it.
Eric
Hello, Vic!
You're down in Magnolia/Tomball, right?
Ruidoso is a great place!
They don't have heated hangars generally avialable. They sometimes have shade hangar available, but keep your wings away from the uprights!
The beauty of that place is when the temps are cold, the density alititude is not too bad. But remember that 7K feet MSL will commonly prevail out there. Use Rwy 12 whenever possible, because the terrain descends from the airport down towards Roswell, and there's a grass runway about 5 miles down that valley on the south side of the highway..... an engine failure after takeoff ....
You'll only need about 3500 feet of runway to clear 50 feet up there, so runway length is not a problem. But....I suggest you not try to go in/out of there at night until you're really familiar with the area. There's rocks in the local clouds up there and there's no place to make an off-airport landing at night.
The multi-grade oil is good for frequent ops in cold weather without pre-heat, but I'd not change to it for just one trip. I'd use 40 wt in the winter, (Nov thru Mar) even in Tomball, but I'd not use AeroShell multi (or Plus, or any other oil with the Lycoming/TPP additives) because of the copper leaching, unless I lived up where cold temps are a regular thing and pre-heat is not easily available.
Ruidoso has a heated hangar they can put you in for a few hours if you ask. I don't know if they'll charge or not. They're pretty friendly/helpful up there. Just prime the heck out of it (4-6 shots) and reload the primer for another squirt just as it begins to run. Keep it cranking in case of backfire and keep your fire-extinguisher handy.
I've started mine at 25 degrees with 6 shots of primer and a reloaded primer, but pre-heat is the best solution. Warm it up for the first minute at 800 rpm, then take it to 1200 rpm for 5 mins. I'll bet you'll do just fine.
The climb rate out of there is miserable in summer but winter should do fine.
(Anybody with an original Owner's Manual for '53 notice the misprint for takeoff performance, zero flaps, 7K MSL?)
You're down in Magnolia/Tomball, right?
Ruidoso is a great place!
They don't have heated hangars generally avialable. They sometimes have shade hangar available, but keep your wings away from the uprights!
The beauty of that place is when the temps are cold, the density alititude is not too bad. But remember that 7K feet MSL will commonly prevail out there. Use Rwy 12 whenever possible, because the terrain descends from the airport down towards Roswell, and there's a grass runway about 5 miles down that valley on the south side of the highway..... an engine failure after takeoff ....
You'll only need about 3500 feet of runway to clear 50 feet up there, so runway length is not a problem. But....I suggest you not try to go in/out of there at night until you're really familiar with the area. There's rocks in the local clouds up there and there's no place to make an off-airport landing at night.
The multi-grade oil is good for frequent ops in cold weather without pre-heat, but I'd not change to it for just one trip. I'd use 40 wt in the winter, (Nov thru Mar) even in Tomball, but I'd not use AeroShell multi (or Plus, or any other oil with the Lycoming/TPP additives) because of the copper leaching, unless I lived up where cold temps are a regular thing and pre-heat is not easily available.
Ruidoso has a heated hangar they can put you in for a few hours if you ask. I don't know if they'll charge or not. They're pretty friendly/helpful up there. Just prime the heck out of it (4-6 shots) and reload the primer for another squirt just as it begins to run. Keep it cranking in case of backfire and keep your fire-extinguisher handy.
I've started mine at 25 degrees with 6 shots of primer and a reloaded primer, but pre-heat is the best solution. Warm it up for the first minute at 800 rpm, then take it to 1200 rpm for 5 mins. I'll bet you'll do just fine.
The climb rate out of there is miserable in summer but winter should do fine.
(Anybody with an original Owner's Manual for '53 notice the misprint for takeoff performance, zero flaps, 7K MSL?)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Reading your cold WX starting method has me thinking George. I start at below freezing temps with one shot of primer and one reload...sometimes needed sometimes not...but makes the first few seconds smoother. Is it normal for the O-300 to require such a wide variety of primer strokes from unit to unit? 7000' to 9000' field elevations? Just to get to these elevations in my bird I'd need to taxi it up on the interstate 
I might try a departure from a 7000' airport with just me and half tanks, but never with my family on board. I'm just gonna have to see it to believe that a 170 can actually utilize a high mountain airport with any kind of load or safety margin
I might try a departure from a 7000' airport with just me and half tanks, but never with my family on board. I'm just gonna have to see it to believe that a 170 can actually utilize a high mountain airport with any kind of load or safety margin John, 2734C in Summit Point, WV
I've had my stock B model at Cold Meadows (I think that's what it's
called) in Idaho. A gaggle of us went there one 35-40 degree F
morning while hopping around to various Idaho back-country strips.
The strip is at around 7000 ft elevation but it's 4500+ feet long (plenty
long enough!).
In these conditions, and with just me in the 170 with around 1/2
tanks, performance was adequate, but I know if you changed the
equation in any way (tried it during the heat of the day for example,
or tried shorter runway, or a heavier load, etc.) the outcome would
be different indeed.
With a stock engined 170, you always pick & choose how, where and
who you're going to "fight" so you know you can win.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
called) in Idaho. A gaggle of us went there one 35-40 degree F
morning while hopping around to various Idaho back-country strips.
The strip is at around 7000 ft elevation but it's 4500+ feet long (plenty
long enough!).
In these conditions, and with just me in the 170 with around 1/2
tanks, performance was adequate, but I know if you changed the
equation in any way (tried it during the heat of the day for example,
or tried shorter runway, or a heavier load, etc.) the outcome would
be different indeed.
With a stock engined 170, you always pick & choose how, where and
who you're going to "fight" so you know you can win.
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
On the way to the Las Vegas convention in 2002 (July temp's) N146YS full of fuel and loaded up to 2050 lbs (Jamie, myself, 130 lbs of baggage and junk) with it's cruise prop (7655) left Ruidoso (elev. 6811, but the density alt was around 9K) using about 3500' (half of Rwy 12 with 6500' concrete) to achieve about 200' of altitude above the runway. Wind was calm.
It took us about 10-15 minutes to get to 8500 ft using a cruise-climb of around 90-95 mph so we were only climbing about 100 fpm or so. (I wasn't really timing it, we were sight-seeing and photographing our sister-ship with Cleo and Louise flying formation off our left. A climb at the recommended 76-79 mph would likely have given better results.)
But that was a summertime departure from a high elevation. I'm pretty sure things would get sloppy loaded to gross wt. These 170's really show it when that last 100 lbs of wt is added at gross.
The other airplane N1929C (belonging to Wendell Wyborny on loan to the Bickfords) is a 54 B-model with a standard prop and fresh top overhaul. It used similar runway to get airborne but it climbed better than N146YS did. When we got to cruise altitude it was another story. I'd run N146YS at 2450 and N1929C needed 2500-2550 to keep up, according to Cleo. I have no idea how accurate N1929C's tach is, but I assume it's good. (This is a factual report. Nothing to do with any green-machine's poor performance and failure to make the convention.)
Seriously, I would not ordinarily recommend a cruise prop for a 170. Mine just came with one. I'd much prefer better takeoff/climb performance.
It took us about 10-15 minutes to get to 8500 ft using a cruise-climb of around 90-95 mph so we were only climbing about 100 fpm or so. (I wasn't really timing it, we were sight-seeing and photographing our sister-ship with Cleo and Louise flying formation off our left. A climb at the recommended 76-79 mph would likely have given better results.)
But that was a summertime departure from a high elevation. I'm pretty sure things would get sloppy loaded to gross wt. These 170's really show it when that last 100 lbs of wt is added at gross.
The other airplane N1929C (belonging to Wendell Wyborny on loan to the Bickfords) is a 54 B-model with a standard prop and fresh top overhaul. It used similar runway to get airborne but it climbed better than N146YS did. When we got to cruise altitude it was another story. I'd run N146YS at 2450 and N1929C needed 2500-2550 to keep up, according to Cleo. I have no idea how accurate N1929C's tach is, but I assume it's good. (This is a factual report. Nothing to do with any green-machine's poor performance and failure to make the convention.)
Seriously, I would not ordinarily recommend a cruise prop for a 170. Mine just came with one. I'd much prefer better takeoff/climb performance.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Isn't that the truth (about the last 100 lbs being the straw
that broke the camel's back!).
Took my '54 up today. Was around 35 degrees F at
1500 AGL.
With just me in it and 1/2 - 3/4 fuel, I saw a 1200-1300 fpm
peak climb rate which settled down to a solid 1000 fpm
at 70mph indicated (51 pitch prop).
Your post got me reminiscing about warmer days, heavy loads
and long runways.... I know of a certain 170 that took most of the
runway at McMinnville, OR to claw it's way into the air last
summer!
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
that broke the camel's back!).
Took my '54 up today. Was around 35 degrees F at
1500 AGL.
With just me in it and 1/2 - 3/4 fuel, I saw a 1200-1300 fpm
peak climb rate which settled down to a solid 1000 fpm
at 70mph indicated (51 pitch prop).
Your post got me reminiscing about warmer days, heavy loads
and long runways.... I know of a certain 170 that took most of the
runway at McMinnville, OR to claw it's way into the air last
summer!
Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP
1 - Coleman, single burner, propane camping stove )$18.95 ?
1 - 4 inch Dryer exhaust duct, aluminumish (~ 2 ft when not stretched)
1 - 6 x 4 inch reducer (feels like tin)
1 - Coleman Propane fuel Green cylinder (1.02 lbs.)
1 - Engine blanket
Run the duct right up under the oil pan. Connect the reducer and drop the other end right over the burner. 1 Propane Cylinder ($1.14 @ Walmarts) will burn at max for 1 hr. Unlike Liquid fuel, propane does not flame up, spill, or be difficult to start. Just light it off, open the flame adjuster full throttle, and in an hour your ready. Actually sooner, but I like the engine block getting warm and throw away the empty propane canister. To tell you the truth, I go have my morning coffee and come back in an hour (no need for a fire speech expecially if you don't start your engine 6 mnths out of the yr with a preheater). This excellent preheater (I've used for years sometimes at temps less than 0 degs) weighs less than 5 lbs and I carry in a milk crate. I've used diff style systems and this works best for me. Except a hanger, which is worth quit a bit to me.
1 - 4 inch Dryer exhaust duct, aluminumish (~ 2 ft when not stretched)
1 - 6 x 4 inch reducer (feels like tin)
1 - Coleman Propane fuel Green cylinder (1.02 lbs.)
1 - Engine blanket
Run the duct right up under the oil pan. Connect the reducer and drop the other end right over the burner. 1 Propane Cylinder ($1.14 @ Walmarts) will burn at max for 1 hr. Unlike Liquid fuel, propane does not flame up, spill, or be difficult to start. Just light it off, open the flame adjuster full throttle, and in an hour your ready. Actually sooner, but I like the engine block getting warm and throw away the empty propane canister. To tell you the truth, I go have my morning coffee and come back in an hour (no need for a fire speech expecially if you don't start your engine 6 mnths out of the yr with a preheater). This excellent preheater (I've used for years sometimes at temps less than 0 degs) weighs less than 5 lbs and I carry in a milk crate. I've used diff style systems and this works best for me. Except a hanger, which is worth quit a bit to me.
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Joe Moilanen
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:45 am
SKI NM
Well these guys have given you some wonderful information. Some of it was by all measurements just fine if you were going to get a degree in aeronautical engineering or become a petro-chemical engineer.
If you are using Aeroshell 100 grade now, change to 80 grade for the rest of the winter.
You will have very little problem with cold weather starts unless the day time temps are in single digits. Stay with the airplane all through the warm up period because the RPMs will increase markedly as the engine warms up. If you are parked on snow pack or an ice covered surface, it is best to keep the tail tied down till you are ready to taxi. Even with the brakes set the craft may slide into some expensive real eatate!
I am going to give you a small selection of winter/mountain/ski trip information. I have had opportunity to ski New Mexico's pristine areas and would choose Angle Fire first for the easiest access by light airplanes from the east. Look at the airnav link and then browse the other info
The mountain has over 2000' vertical and enough green and black areas for almost any level of skill. Some of it may not be open yet so check daily. http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAXX
I have roots* in my family from Cloudcroft but it is much less area and more difficulties in dealing with the infrastructure. (*One of my grandmother's brothers was the proprieter of the Cloudcroft Inn in the 1920s but I chose other places to ski because of logistic difficulties there.)
My second choice in New Mexico would be Taos. The skiing is excellent and the customer access is very good.
http://www.skinewmexico.com/intpage-snowreports
Low density altitudes are common in winter so don't sweat it. Enjoy but fly safe.
If you are using Aeroshell 100 grade now, change to 80 grade for the rest of the winter.
You will have very little problem with cold weather starts unless the day time temps are in single digits. Stay with the airplane all through the warm up period because the RPMs will increase markedly as the engine warms up. If you are parked on snow pack or an ice covered surface, it is best to keep the tail tied down till you are ready to taxi. Even with the brakes set the craft may slide into some expensive real eatate!
I am going to give you a small selection of winter/mountain/ski trip information. I have had opportunity to ski New Mexico's pristine areas and would choose Angle Fire first for the easiest access by light airplanes from the east. Look at the airnav link and then browse the other info
The mountain has over 2000' vertical and enough green and black areas for almost any level of skill. Some of it may not be open yet so check daily. http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAXX
I have roots* in my family from Cloudcroft but it is much less area and more difficulties in dealing with the infrastructure. (*One of my grandmother's brothers was the proprieter of the Cloudcroft Inn in the 1920s but I chose other places to ski because of logistic difficulties there.)
My second choice in New Mexico would be Taos. The skiing is excellent and the customer access is very good.
http://www.skinewmexico.com/intpage-snowreports
Low density altitudes are common in winter so don't sweat it. Enjoy but fly safe.
OLE GAR SEZ - 4 Boats, 4 Planes, 4 houses. I've got to quit collecting!
Mr Flyguy,
Cloudcroft is one of my best'es summer time childhood memories. Uncle was a Navigator stationed in Alamogardo for 8 yrs. Anyway that is such a beautiful place. I also went snow skiing at Eagle Nest (near Taos) growing up.
Landed on Petit Jean Saturday. Popped the tail wheel tube. Not as easy to find a 2.50/2.80 4" tube here. But patched the one enough to get back home (10mins) before it went down again. New tube in now. Anyway nice camping area at Petit Jean. We could have a Fly-in there. Park all our planes on pavement. Some could camp and others stay at the local Lodge. We butcher a Longhorn about every 6 months and have a monster charcoal grill. I want to try this, even if it's just Joe and I and Randal.
Cloudcroft is one of my best'es summer time childhood memories. Uncle was a Navigator stationed in Alamogardo for 8 yrs. Anyway that is such a beautiful place. I also went snow skiing at Eagle Nest (near Taos) growing up.
Landed on Petit Jean Saturday. Popped the tail wheel tube. Not as easy to find a 2.50/2.80 4" tube here. But patched the one enough to get back home (10mins) before it went down again. New tube in now. Anyway nice camping area at Petit Jean. We could have a Fly-in there. Park all our planes on pavement. Some could camp and others stay at the local Lodge. We butcher a Longhorn about every 6 months and have a monster charcoal grill. I want to try this, even if it's just Joe and I and Randal.
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zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
Re: popping tailwheel tube-- even on an airport with an FBO or pilot shop,you'd be lucky to find a replacement tire/tube other than for a 600x6. For this reason, I carry a spare tailwheel tire & tube as well as a 800x6 tube for my mains--all worn but servicable ones that were replaced. They're tiewrapped to a bulkhead just aft of the baggage compartment. Also carry a tire pump & a few tools.
Eric
Eric
Eric's advice is really good! Tailwheel airplanes are getting so scarce that most airports have absolutely no parts to service that little wheel in back. I carry a spare tire, tube, and $4 foot-pump from WalMart. Keep the spare (I only recommend new spare parts, not used ones) in a high-quality freezer Zip-Lok bag with the air "squoze" out of it.
About 3 years ago I was the last airplane allowed to land before the Galveston airport was closed for an airshow. There were hundreds of people watching as I exited the runway just prior to the Fly-over by a gaggle of fighters. No sooner than I exited, the tailwheel went flat(mesquite thorn), but before I could stop the tube had been cut by the small wheel rim.
The tire was damaged but reuseable for the short term. The local shop used their roller-cart/dolly to roll the airplane out of the center of the airport so the air-show could proceed. (This reminds me of the attention I'd gotten as a 14 year old allowed to drive a stick-shift Mercury on the beach, when it stalled on a steep incline driving up the sea-wall in downtown Galveston, in front of thousands of summertime beach-goers, many of whom were cute 14 year old girls.)
Anyway, the only tube available came from the pnuematic tires from the very dolly used to get the airplane out of the way. It worked, but was just a lucky happenchance. I've carried spare tire/tube/pump/tools ever since, and it's been a perfect solution. I've never had a flat since I've been prepared.
About 3 years ago I was the last airplane allowed to land before the Galveston airport was closed for an airshow. There were hundreds of people watching as I exited the runway just prior to the Fly-over by a gaggle of fighters. No sooner than I exited, the tailwheel went flat(mesquite thorn), but before I could stop the tube had been cut by the small wheel rim.
The tire was damaged but reuseable for the short term. The local shop used their roller-cart/dolly to roll the airplane out of the center of the airport so the air-show could proceed. (This reminds me of the attention I'd gotten as a 14 year old allowed to drive a stick-shift Mercury on the beach, when it stalled on a steep incline driving up the sea-wall in downtown Galveston, in front of thousands of summertime beach-goers, many of whom were cute 14 year old girls.)
Anyway, the only tube available came from the pnuematic tires from the very dolly used to get the airplane out of the way. It worked, but was just a lucky happenchance. I've carried spare tire/tube/pump/tools ever since, and it's been a perfect solution. I've never had a flat since I've been prepared.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
-
zero.one.victor
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 12:11 am
I also keep another used tailwheel tire/tube in my hangar,plus another old 800x6 tube & a couple old 800x6 tires. Came in handy a few weeks ago-- a friend's tailwheel tube split & he was able to get flying that day using my spare,instead of having to wait a week for a tube from Spruce. I even got the new tube from Spruce for a replacement of my spare!
Eric
Eric