The International Cessna 170 Association

Hi all,

As part of my CFI training, I need to have a spin endorsement.

Unfortunately, I'm larger than the average FAA-sized adult, and after some digging, it appears as though the 170 is my best choice for doing my spin endorsement. I have a petite female friend of mine (CFI) that has volunteered to do my training with me as she used to do a lot of upset attitude/spin recovery training. Other than warning me about the gyro possibly going for a nice tumble because they cannot be caged, I do not have much other input. I'm confident she's never flow a 170, but I'm not sure how that will impact matters.

I'm seeking counsel from CFI 170 drivers with some familiarity with spins. This is going to be a one-time deal, and the airplane is in average condition compared to what I've seen fleet-wide. My plan is to simply pull the DG and AI from the panel and do my training, then replace them afterward. I've heard a wide range of opinions on the topic from some members whom I respect, but I would like to engage someone directly rather than passively reading opinions on the topic. My priority level for this is as follows:

1. Don't get killed doing it.
2. Don't break the airplane.
3. Don't bend the airplane.
4. Don't make the airplane mad at me.
5. Successful spin endorsement in my logbook.

I would enjoy doing them in the airplane, but I'm not married to the idea. If I could justify getting it done in an Extra or T-34 I would, but I am on a mission and unfortunately goofing off isn't part of the curriculum.

Any takers, feel free to PM me if you'd rather not discuss openly here. I'm looking for an objective, scientific approach to this and I have a feeling that some of the elders here can give me what I'm looking for.

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,

Ryan

Why not rent a 172 or something with newer rudder bolts?

I'd rent Miles' airplane.

But seriously, there aren't too many airplanes to rent around here that would appreciate spins being done in the airplane, much less with my instructor. There is a world-class aerobatic maintenance shop 20 miles away that I could fly in any number of airplanes, but none of the folks out there are CFIs. Rudder bolts are certainly a cause for concern, hence my query here.

This is a convoluted path of least resistance.

A spin is a 1G maneuver. Unless you screw up the recovery and need to really yank back but that's unlikely.
I you must, I would give a very good inspection to the rudder bolts and post and if possible wear a chute.

BUT, it's one thing to spin a 170 and it's another to be comfortable enough with recovering from spins.

I did mine in a Citabria and we did quite a few on several flights from all kinds of entries. It took a little bit to get the muscle memory stamped into my head to be certain that I'd do the right thing if it ever happened.

Ryan Smith wrote:Hi all,

As part of my CFI training, I need to have a spin endorsement.

Unfortunately, I'm larger than the average FAA-sized adult, and after some digging, it appears as though the 170 is my best choice for doing my spin endorsement. I have a petite female friend of mine (CFI) that has volunteered to do my training with me as she used to do a lot of upset attitude/spin recovery training. Other than warning me about the gyro possibly going for a nice tumble because they cannot be caged, I do not have much other input. I'm confident she's never flow a 170, but I'm not sure how that will impact matters.

I'm seeking counsel from CFI 170 drivers with some familiarity with spins. This is going to be a one-time deal, and the airplane is in average condition compared to what I've seen fleet-wide. My plan is to simply pull the DG and AI from the panel and do my training, then replace them afterward. I've heard a wide range of opinions on the topic from some members whom I respect, but I would like to engage someone directly rather than passively reading opinions on the topic. My priority level for this is as follows:

1. Don't get killed doing it.
2. Don't break the airplane.
3. Don't bend the airplane.
4. Don't make the airplane mad at me.
5. Successful spin endorsement in my logbook.

I would enjoy doing them in the airplane, but I'm not married to the idea. If I could justify getting it done in an Extra or T-34 I would, but I am on a mission and unfortunately goofing off isn't part of the curriculum.

Any takers, feel free to PM me if you'd rather not discuss openly here. I'm looking for an objective, scientific approach to this and I have a feeling that some of the elders here can give me what I'm looking for.

Thanks in advance!

Best regards,

Ryan

Ryan, I spun mine several times a few years ago. (Self taught). Went up to about 5000, did a power off stall, at the break kicked left rubber. Did about 1 and 1/2 spins, released back pressure , neutralized rubber and it just about flew itself out. Did not feel there was hardly any stress on plane.

If you want to learn spins or spin recovery get a few hours with someone in a plane who is familiar with the training and not afraid to spin his aircraft. You will learn.

On the other hand if finances are tight or you only want to check the box, your 170 should be fine. This statement of course takes into consideration the CFI teaching you knows a 170 and you and they don't manage to over stress the 170 more than is necessary for the endorsement. The endorsement does not require deep spins or violent maneuvers. If you where demonstrating this to the examiner (you have that option, you don't need an endorsement prior), they would be expecting no more than a one turn spin.

Long term subjection of an airframe to high stress is one thing. Subjecting an airframe to a few stresses a easy one turn spin would subject would be well within the design limit. If you don't think your plane will withstand a few easy spins, it's not airworthy to take around the patch in a normal flight envelope.

This is much more than a check the box type of event. That is the problem with CFI training the last 30 plus years. It has been looked at as a "check the box" event. To be a CFI worth anything, you need to fully understand the aerodynamics involved in all types and aspects of spins. You also need exposure to, and recovery practice from all types of spins. This includes aggravated entries. This is even more important in modern times, because spin training isn't required for training outside of CFI. That means the spins you are likely to get into are inadvertent entries, which usually result from aggravating entries. You also need to fully understand and see the difference between spins and spirals. With training from a properly experienced CFI, this can be accomplished in a C-170, but probably not all in one flight.

I spin my -170 a few times per year.
PM Sent

Jughead

Jughead, you have a utopian view. Few have the training you have. We would have few CFIs and no new pilots if that level of training was required.

First problem is most FAA examiners don't have the training to check competency and certainly most CFI's don't, so who would teach it? And in what aircraft?

Should there be more training? Probably.

Bruce, Everything I am talking about can be completed in any aircraft certified for spins.

Jon/Bruce,

Thanks for your replies...you are some of the ones I was hoping would chime in.

Of course budget is always a concern, but in my case, time is the greater concern. I have accepted a position at a flight school in Goldsboro, NC and will start training there pending the completion of my instruction. I will be the lone civilian pilot — the rest are all Air Force pilots of some variety. Jon, if memory serves, you are a retired Eagle driver? The owner of the school is one as well; Chris Kreske...perhaps you've met.

Anyway, I need to have my CFI complete in relatively short order, so I am treating this as a checkbox. I'm all for higher learning from qualified pilots, and my treat to myself after getting my CFI is to head out to Nevada and fly with Doug Mueller to get a better handle on the wind. I'd love to do some advanced spin training in a 170 with you sometime as well. Hopefully I can make it up your way some day, or if Alaska Airlines is still bringing aircraft to HAECO for cabin retrofit and you wind up on one, I'm located in Greensboro and we could use my airplane for a more in-depth course.

I am using the CFI as a means to an end (airline job), but I do enjoy teaching and will continue to teach after I get my big boy job. I love flying and love 170s and just want to be the best pilot I can be and be as comfortable in these airplanes as many of you professionals like Bruce/Jon/Doug/Richard/George and eventually help others learn about them as well.

PLEASE tell me if I am wrong but 170,s should not be spun. I was talking to a cessna engineer a couple of years ago about spinning some of cessna,s models . When i told him that i have spun my 170A he was horrified . He told me I must have been in the utility category when i spun it . I did my spin training in a super decathlon . He went on and on about the different models that give issues .
He gave me a list of "approved manovers " such as lazy eights and what approach speeds " , i cant find the bit of paper these days .

Per the Flight Manual, "Spins - Slow Deceleration" are approved for the 170B in the Utility Category. It's in Note 1 at the bottom of the first page. It also gives the entry speeds for other manuevers in the Utility Category, such as chandelles and lazy eights.

The 170 is approved for spins in the utility category but not the Normal category.

From the flight manual

1. The following maneuvers are approved for operation in the Utility Category only, with recommended
entry speeds shown:
Chandelle - 115 MPH. Steep Turn - 115 MPH. Lazy Eight - 115 MPH. All Stalls
(except Whip Stalls) - Slow Deceleration. Spins - Slow Deceleration

Last month a friend who is working on getting his licence was having trouble feeling confident doing stalls in his 170A, so when I was out dinkin' around with a camera running, I decided to demonstrate a falling leaf stall. After a bit of that, I decided to kick in some left rudder and let it fall into a spin. I was amazed how sluggish it spun, and it wanted to pop out after only 3/4 of a turn. Later, I took my friend up in my plane and tried to demonstrate spin entry and recovery, but the plane just didn't want to do it. We got it to do one slow 3/4 turn once, but on the second try, I had the yoke full back, left rudder all the way in, and we were just gently descending in a level attitude. My previous plane was a Cessna 150 Aerobat that I regularly took up for spins, loops, rolls, snap rolls, etc, and it always spun and recovered on command. I think if someone wanted to actually practice spins, the 170 may not be the best option since it just doesn't really want to do them without a lot of encouragement.

On a side note, spins are hard on gyros. My AH was already getting pretty tired, but the first spin I did, it decided to follow me half way through the maneuver and stuck upside down. That was when I decided to just remove all vacuum gyros and associated parts too.

Here is a link to the falling leaf/spin video I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NMVE5NHm7I

Folks there is nothing wrong with doing a spin in the 170. The big question which is of all concern to any engineer. Can it be done correctly? The truth is, that if the original poster is seeking spin training for his CFI. In that training, the CFI, teaching the OP, must also explain how an improper recovery can result and effects. Although it can be taught arm chair quarterback style, experience is the best teacher. That makes the 170 unacceptable to do spin training in period. Let me also add this. I have 2 same exact model gliders currently sitting as lawn orniments because EASA in Europe issued a manditory grounding because a flight instructor was doin aerobatic training in the LET L-13 Blanik. The student/instructor scenario ripped the wings off on a flight in Austria. They both did not survive. THe FAA sympathy agreed to ground the Blaniks in the US for the same reason. Noone can enjoy these gliders anymore. DO you want the 170 to fall into this also? Please be smart about flying your airplanes. they are over 60 years old. Save maneuvers like this for the aircraft designed to do this.