Avionics/Bendix-Honeywell

[wa4jr]

Not what I wanted to hear this morning, but now things make a bit more sense. I assumed (yes I know what that made me ) that the memory battery was only associated with the user stored waypoints. Now I understand why the unit seems to take forever to initialize, and when I look on the status page, no active LORAN chain is displayed...the page is blank. I suppose relative to other navigational options, getting this KLN-88 spiffed up now makes a bit more sense. Perhaps if I pretend I'm biting a .22 instead of a .45 or .50 bullet, George

I'll follow up the Bevan-Rabell link before I send my KLN-88 off to Bendix/Honeywell, but since all these initial memory tasks need to be done, I suspect the folks in Olathe hold the only magic wand.

I think I'll also recommend to them (Bendix/Honeywell) that the phone staff do a much better job of explaining what is involved with jobs like this....just saying that it will be $275 just to "look" at a radio causes people like me to go out and howl at the moon....and yes...it was a full moon last night

[wa4jr]

I called Bevan-Rabell and I was handed off to someone who actually spoke as if he knew something of avionics. I was informed that my KLN-88 could be brought back to life for $190, so my unit is on the way to Wichita. I don't think I'll be playing ball with King/Bendix/Honeywell anymore with prices like they have. No wonder everybody seems to be going Garmin

[GAHorn]

There's a difference between simply having a battery installed ("brought back to life?") and having a battery installed and also getting the latest software updates. Be certain you're getting the latest software revision available.
("going to Garmin"...is like saying apples-to-oranges. It's not that ANY gps is a fair comparison to any loran, as they are very different systems. A similar event occurred lately with regard to Garmin.... their software vs satellite availablilty for the GPS III changed so they... CANCELLED support for the GPS III. At least Honeywell will still support the KLN-88 with software updates.)

[R COLLINS]

George, One important point in this apple to oranges comparison is the fact that the original retail price of the KLN 88 was $5895.00 which is a big difference than that of the GPS 3 at $449.00. I would hope King supports something that had such a price tag until the last one is dead. Just goes to show the KLN 88 was the most advanced loran ever made.

[GAHorn]

That's certainly true. However, I only paid $150 for my KLN-88 when I installed it in my 170. (I did have it sent back to Honeywell, and they did charge me $120 to install a battery at the time (1999), but they threw in the software updates for free at that time. Since the 88 is becoming less and less of their mainstream revenue product, and since all things seem to go up in price...I'm not surprised at the current $275 charge for the battery... I'm just pointing out that with a battery replacement, Honeywell also provides other (unseen) services that might not have been apparent at first blush.)
My KLN-88 has allowed me to make at least two IFR descents into VFR conditons when my Garmin GPS was "lost" over the last two years. So, I'm not as trusting of GPS as many are. (On at least one occasion, I had visual contact with the ground and knew exactly where I was, but the DUAL GARMIN 530's in the Citation I was flying showed us almost 80 miles west of our actual position! Predictive RAIM was simply not available at that time/place. The KLN-88 onboard that airplane (which was actually not current on it's database) still showed us exactly where we were actually located. Admittedly, that is rare, and loran is certainly not as reliable in precip as most gps units are, ... but that was certainly an eye-opener for me!

(Lindbergh found Paris within 10 minutes of when he predicted, at night, before airfields and airfield lighting was common, with nothing more than a compass and a clock. Spatial orientation is still important.)

[jrenwick]

A similar event occurred lately with regard to Garmin.... their software vs satellite availablilty for the GPS III changed so they... CANCELLED support for the GPS III.

George, you had me going for a moment there, until I checked the Garmin web site. The GPS III has been discontinued, but is still "supported" to the extent that you can still download the most recent software for free and update the database for $35.00 one-time. (There hasn't been any new software for the GPS III in the last 3-4 years.)
Best Regards,
John

[cessna170bdriver]

(On at least one occasion, I had visual contact with the ground and knew exactly where I was, but the DUAL GARMIN 530's in the Citation I was flying showed us almost 80 miles west of our actual position! Predictive RAIM was simply not available at that time/place. The KLN-88 onboard that airplane (which was actually not current on it's database) still showed us exactly where we were actually located.

I'm not ragging on loran (my Apollo 604 will be in my panel 'till its dying day), but I had the opposite experience on the way to Alaska in 2000. On a long leg from Dease Lake, BC, my first GPS (a $119 Magellan handheld hiking unit requiring manual way point entry and thrown up on top of the glareshield) put me on the centerline of the runway at Whitehorse while my panel mount Apollo 604 loran showed me 50 miles to the west WITHOUT a warning light.

BTW, I especially like the ADF-style display in the little Magellan unit. (A friend of my Dad's once said while going to school for the second time to learn the B-757/767 glass cockpit, "Just give me a needle pointing at something.")

(Lindbergh found Paris within 10 minutes of when he predicted, at night, before airfields and airfield lighting was common, with nothing more than a compass and a clock. Spatial orientation is still important.)

One of my proudest moments flying was navigating my little BC-12D T-craft with only a compass and a map from Tullahoma, TN to Lexington, TN and back and centering the destinations both ways. True, 105NM is a long way from 3300, and it was daytime over terra firma, but it still made me feel good. (The roads in Tennessee are so crooked, I actually heard a pilot from Ohio once comment that anyone who could navigate a straight line over Tennessee could do so over open water.)

I've gotten lazy in my old age and use GPS, Loran, VOR, and even ADF when there's a station within range, but I still keep the map open and my thumb on it. (Hey, gotta do something to keep all the brain cells firing!).

Miles

[GAHorn]

George, you had me going for a moment there, until I checked the Garmin web site. The GPS III has been discontinued, but is still "supported" to the extent that you can still download the most recent software for free and update the database for $35.00 one-time. (There hasn't been any new software for the GPS III in the last 3-4 years.)
Best Regards,
John

I wasn't referring to navigation-database updates. The lack of "support" I was referring to is the notice that Garmin provided one of my clients when he found that new satellites had been lofted and old ones disabled. They told him that several models of their less-expensive units (including the GPSIII) would not have their software updated with the new sat data. Over time those units will degrade to the point of being disabled (even tho' there's nothing wrong with the unit itself) due to Garmin's decision not to update their almanac software.
My general point was that (so far) loran chains are still located where they always were, and that when specific chains have a station drop out (blink) the KLN88 units simply use adjoining chain data to re-compute position. (The 88's are so-called "multi-chain" units and can blend data from multiple chains to create a composite position.)
Miles' msg points out a "shadow" position that some lorans can display, especially when they are not within their approved navigational area. I don't know if the Apollo unit was ever approved for IFR use in AK/CAN. (The KLN-88 is approved for IFR enroute/terminal even for most of Alaska below 70N and Canada below 60 degrees N Lat. If your loran does not have approval for IFR in your operating area it has an increased chance of "re-lane-ing" and showing a false position, similar to lack of accurate sat coverage/RAIM with a gps.)
The advantage of sending the unit back to the mfr is that any software updates needed for expanded IFR coverage is automatically included in the battery service. (Early 88's did not include AK/CANADA in their IFR certs.) If you have a KLN-88, look on the unit to see if it has a "sticker" identifying it's ORS (Operational Revision Status), ...OR... when you FIRST turn on the unit, look at the upper-right corner of the screen for the ORS status level which will be briefly displayed. ORS 01 cannot navigate using the 8290 North central chain, or the 9610 SC chain, or the 8970 Great Lakes chain. ORS 03 or 04 is required to utilize those chains, and ORS 04 is req'd for IFR cert. in AK or Canada.

[cessna170bdriver]

Miles' msg points out a "shadow" position that some lorans can display, especially when they are not within their approved navigational area. I don't know if the Apollo unit was ever approved for IFR use in AK/CAN.

To be fair, the Apollo 604 IS a VFR-only unit, and is placarded as such in my airplane. My point was that I was surprised that it gave me no warning (other than intermittent groundspeeds in the range of 600 to 999 knots ) that anything was amiss. It had always given me warnings in fringe areas, as in certain parts of the US before I had the North Central and South Central chains installed, and along baselines or near stations, as in eastern California near the Colorado River (Searchlight, NV station).

While planning my Alaska trip, I realized I would be in the fringe or completely outside the 604's standard operating areas on much of my trip, therefore the Magellan 315 hiking unit. It was a no-brainer as to which to trust when the 604 position and Magellan 315 began to diverge. (The fact that the pilots of the other two 170's in the group weren't complaining gave me an additional warm fuzzy.)

I like my Loran unit (and my VOR, and my ADF), but if forced to choose one electronic nav system, I'd pick GPS for its accuracy and breadth of coverage.

Miles

[jrenwick]

The lack of "support" I was referring to is the notice that Garmin provided one of my clients when he found that new satellites had been lofted and old ones disabled. They told him that several models of their less-expensive units (including the GPSIII) would not have their software updated with the new sat data. Over time those units will degrade to the point of being disabled (even tho' there's nothing wrong with the unit itself) due to Garmin's decision not to update their almanac software.

Thanks for the clarification! Garmin doesn't advertise this on their web site, of course. I really love the GPSIII for its size and profile -- it sits very nicely anywhere you can stick a velcro strip, even on the top of my J3's front seat-back. And four AA batteries last a long time. And I can stick it in a pocket when I leave the plane. I'll be sad when I finally have to replace it!

Best Regards,

John

[wa4jr]

Finally getting time to let folks know that I did have a very good experience with Bevan-Rabell. They did not ask for any money until they had a chance to look at my KLN-88. Honeywell would not open my shipping box until they had a credit card authorization for $295.....their MINIMUM charge for any avionics operation. A tech from B-R called once they had accessed my KLN-88 and told me it could indeed be brought back to life and re-oriented for $190 complete with a new battery and a complete cleaning of all internal board connectors and switches. I should have asked about a database update at the same time, but since I had a 2004 database and I paid $250 for that from Honeywell, I was not too inclined to add to my bill. But yes, the KLN-88 is a fine unit that has never led me astray. I will retain the unit in my new stack even if the new stack includes a Garmin 430. The only problem I have had in intermittent precip static raising the noise level such that the LORAN signal is lost...but this can probably be fixed in an afternoon with control surface bonding and static wicks. Long live the KLN-88.....for penny pinchers like ME