Need recommendations on Paint Shops

170C · Post by **170C** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:52 am

I would be extremely cautious about anybody's $4500 paint job unless that was without stripping the airframe. A friend had his Hawk XP stripped & painted at a local (Fort Worth, TX) shop(?) for $4500 a couple of years ago. It was one of those 15 foot paint jobs--------looked OK from 15 feet away. Up close it was lousy! He later took it to the shop I used and had it redone. It looks really great now. Mine was done 3 yrs ago and I remain happy with the workmanship/results. I paid $6500 for the complete job. I am sure it is more now (doesn't everything we pay for go up?), but would not hesitate to recommend Kevin Miller @ Red Bird (now Dallas Executive--had to change name to "sound" more sophicated!) airport in SW Dallas, TX. If interested I can provide phone #.

Ole Pokey

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:46 pm

I've also been pleased with Kevin Miller's work. He's easy to work with, does good work, and has been fair in his pricing.

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:37 am

william halford wrote:Some time back while the discussion of painting aircraft was going on. The person that is hanger next to us, carried his piper aztec to Mena AR. Well he got it back last week let me say this is one fine paint job. The workmanship was top notch. I thought it look good but at every airport you all ways have that one person that always think he could have done better. But this indivdual could not find anythig wrong. Around here that is a complement

I might add that this person was called and offered a special deal dut to the fact that they had 2 weeks with nothing schedule and instead of layeing off his painters he woul offer him a special for $ 6800.oo

The person to contact is: Dennis & Linda Goodner 479.394.5575 Mena Arkansas. ;;;170mb

I tracked down the above contact info and the facility is AOG Paint Services. I emailed them and they quoted me $4800! I also emailed Goodner-Crider (also in Mena) and they quoted me $5900. Sorry to dredge up the Mena/paint shop thing again, but i'm really getting serious about find a good shop. Anybody else have any experience with either of these shops? The reputable shop in NH that I mentioned in a previous post that quoted me $7800 last year and has since gone up to $9300. Another good shop in ME quoted me $9800. Looks like I can't get a decent paint job in the Northeast for under $9K.

There's got to be a place that does good paint for reasonable prices. Does anyone know of any east of the Mississippi? Help!

n3833v · Post by **n3833v** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:25 pm

Try JRA Executive in Hagerstown MD. They do super work and I have had many compliments on my paint job. They have a web site.
http://www.jraexecair.com/

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:22 am

Thanks John. I'll check them out.

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:31 am

I've received quotes from several shops and have found that there seems to be a definite price differential based on the paint system (see my post under "Paint Systems"). The shops using a Polyester Polyurethane (i.e. Jet Glo) seem to be cheaper than the shops using an Acrylic Polyurethane (i.e. Imron, Acry-Glo). I requested quotes for a complete strip and repaint of my '52 with a cream base color and the trim in the original 1952 factory scheme in Insignia Red. Here's the list of the facilities, quotes and the paint systems used:

Facility
Amount - Paint System

AOG - Mena, AR
$4800 - Didn't say

Goodner-Crider, Mena, AR
$5900 - Jet-Glo

J&M Aviation-Middlebury, VT
$7000 - Jet-Glo (up from $5500 last year)

JRA Executive, Hagerstown, MD
$8200 - Jet-Glo

Prestige, Swanton, VT
$8500 - Jet-Glo

Lancaster Aero, Smoketown, PA
$8600 - PPG

Keyson Airways, Nashua, NH
$9300 - Imron (up from $7800 last year)

Oxford Aviation, Oxford, ME
$9800 - 3M, or Imron (that's last year's quote)

KD Aviation/Reese Aircraft - Robbinsville, NJ
$10,500 - Acry-Glo

I'm certainly not trying to deride anyone's paint job, but if the Jet-Glo doesn't hold up like Imron or Acry-Glo (again, see my post under "paint systems"), then it would certainly explain the price differences. When you factor in the region of the country (northeast in my case), it looks like the more "affordable" shops (in the $7k-$8k range) use Jet-Glo and the high-end places ($9k and up) use Imron or Acry-Glo. If the Jet-Glo really does turn "chalky" over time then I guess I'm headed for Imron. Since I keep my plane outside I need all the protection I can get. If I want "chalky", I'll save myself $8k and just keep what I have now.

By the time I pay off my paint job it'll be time to overhaul the engine.

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:50 pm

OK, I 've done a bunch of investigating on this subject as I close in on my selection of a paint shop. In my previous posts I talked about Jet-Glo vs. Imron, etc. and my perceived quality issues. Well, as it turns out, the quality issues are more a function of how the aircraft is prepared and the paint is applied than the paint itself. There are several good urethanes on the market these days, but not all shops follow the manufacturers prescribed methods of application which results in "chalky" appearances, for example, that I mentioned in earlier posts. So, since I've been doing so much digging over the last few months, I thought I'd share a list of questions I've compiled that I ask shops when I'm "interviewing" them. Interviewing is just how I treated it once I knew what to ask. If they pass, then I take a trip to their facility for a "second interview". Let's face it, with the kind of $$$ we are talking, they should do everything they can to provide a quality product and win your business. One thing is for sure, you definitely get what you pay for. So, here's my list. Hope some of you find it helpful:

Paint shop questions
In no particular order:

1. How much?
2. What is included in the price?
-- Usually applies to exterior work only and includes: Strip, prep, paint w/White base color plus two trim colors, 2 hours cosmetic work (dent filling). A different base color can usually be substituted for an additional fee or at the sacrifice of one trim color.
3. What method is used to strip the aircraft?
4. How is the bare metal cleaned after stripping?
5. Do they acid etch and alodine the aircraft?
-- Acid etch cleans the airframe and alodine provides corrosion control and helps the paint adhere to the airframe.
6. What paint system is used? (Imron, JetGlo, PPG, etc)
7. How do they apply it? (How many coats? IAW the mfgr specs?)
8. If dent filling is required, what do they use for body filler? (bondo/automotive or aluminum/aircraft specific)
-- There are aluminum based fillers designed for aviation use that bond very well to the aluminum skin and can deal with the vibration, flexing, and temperature changes associated with flight. Not all shops use these fillers. Some shops use Bondo or some other automotive filler which will crack over time from use and exposure to the elements.
9. How much â€œfreeâ€ cosmetic time is included in the price? (If not already answered in # 2 - generally 2 hours)
10. Do they have a climate controlled facility for painting?
11. If sheet metal work is required, can they do it or do you have to have it done elsewhere?
-- Not all shops do sheet metal work. If you require sheet metal work you may want to weigh the cost (and quality) of having it done elsewhere (and possibly having to incur shipping costs) vs. finding a paint shop that can also do the work.
12. If they claim they can do sheet metal, do they have the necessary jigs (if required)?
13. Will they perform a weight & balance after the work is done?
14. Do they remove the control surfaces for painting and balance them afterward?
-- This is a MUST.
15. Do they remove inspection panels, fairings, etc for painting separately or leave them on the aircraft?
-- Removing these items for painting is preferred.
16. Do they warranty their work? If so, how long?
-- A good shop will warranty for at least one year.
17. How do they handle touch ups if required?
-- A good shop will take care of touch ups at no charge.
18. Do they provide touch paint?
19. How long will your aircraft be down?
20. References?
21. Have they painted your aircraft type before?

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:43 pm

All excellent work/research Doug!
Of course, on a 170 it's not such a problem, but on other types a good question to ask is How are areas such as wheel-wells/flap-wells treated, and how are the landing gear legs treated? What about door/window sills? Will the airplane base color be painted with the cowl and inspection covers ON? Or OFF? How about the inside of the cowl? Will it be painted? What about placards? Stick-On? or Stenciled and sprayed?
Original logos and service instructions re-applied? How about the wheels? Will they be painted with base color or silver lacquer? (I prefer silver lacquer for touch-up and crack detection, but that's a personal choice.)
In Big Spring, Tx a couple years ago, I visited the paint shop where my friend's Debonair was being painted. He was a repeat customer having had his previously owned C-175 painted there.
The shop had always claimed they removed, painted, re-balanced control surfaces with correct sign-offs. But I observed three airplanes in various stages of completion; One being stripped, one already acid-etched/primed, and one already base-coated and having it's stripes painted. I noticed they all had their flight controls still installed, and my friends finished airplane had no tool-marks on the AN bolts attaching his flight controls thru their bearings.

A personal surprise visit never hurts, and an inspection visit at the end of the stripping process is highly recommended to inspect for hidden hail damage and skin repair patches that have been hidden with body-filler. (My friend's Deb was purchased in the NW and in his eagerness to get it at such a low price he didn't look at it too hard or listen too well. When it was stripped it was simply beaten up with old hail damage. (It cost him an additional $2400 in labor and body filler, some of which was illegally applied to the ailerons/elevators. It's amazing what ordinarily honest people will do when the honest fix comes out of their own wallet.)

(The correct fix, re-skin of the ailerons/elevators would have been an additional $5800. I hope none of that bondo comes off in-flight!)

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:50 pm

A good job on anything requires research and familiarization with the process. If you want a job done correctly, you need to know the process being used. The most expensive quote may not be the best job and the cheapest may not be the worst choice. Educate yourself (respectfully submitted) and dog the job. Of course, dogging the job costs more, so you will have to decide on what you can live with. As always, I ask myself,"What do I want the next person behind me to go through?"

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:17 am

Thanks George!

Your comments about the hail damaged aircraft are a good example of the need to know as much as possible your aircraft and the paint process. I have some minor hail dings on a couple control surfaces - nothing serious, you can't really see them unless you are at just the right angle. Anyway, I was surprised to find that some shops had no problem just hitting them with bondo and painting them. The more reputable places wouldn't even touch them until they were reskinned. Just goes to show that you REALLY need to investigate a LOT of shops. I've talked to 10 or 12 and feel that is probably a good number. It really is amazing the variations you get when asking for a quote. Ten different shops and ten different opinions on what to do. It's been "real interesting" researching this.

I think I'm going to end up going with Oxford Aviation in ME (http://www.oxfordaviation.com) and aim to get the work done around May. These guys are really top notch - a few of the planes they have painted have been in AOPA magazine. I know I'm going to be paying top dollar, but I've seen their work on a couple planes at my airport and it truly is outstanding. I've spoken with their president Jim Horowitz a couple of times and these guys are serious about their work and their reputation. I'm sure I'll be in good hands. They are also close enough that I can drop in on them from time to time and check on things.

Wish me luck

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:46 pm

Good Luck Doug!

I think your research is great. You'll be happy with your decision even though it's a lot of money. I've always found that once the wallet pain is over you get past that and enjoy the high quality. Every time you walk up to your plane It'll be a positive reinforcement. The absolute opposite is true with a lesser job. With paint even those who don't know the difference will comment on how nice it looks, many times not really knowing why, just that it looks good!

Now, one problem is that with the paint real nice the interior etc. will perhaps look worse than before. (Where does one stop?) Be especially aware of the side window glass as to replace those after will disturb the paint. I've always liked to do the rear windows before the painting and then pull the door windows painting the parts first then reassembling with new glass. Extra effort but worth it unless your glass is perfect. The windshield is another story, not hard to do but expensive.

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:16 pm

This is going to be a fairly big project. My plane had an Airtex interior in it when I bought it and it's in pretty nice shape - hopefully it will still look that way after the paint job

I'll be replacing all the glass when I have the paint done. I also plan on having the instrument panel repainted, so things should look pretty good when it's done.

Post by **GAHorn** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:58 pm

A warranty is a promise to re-do poor work. It's not really a warranty if you have to fly the plane 400 miles to make the claim and spend two weeks doing it. A shop close by is worth lot's of $$ you can spend rather than buying the cheap job a long ways off. I think you've made a good decision, Doug.

Curtis Brown · Post by **Curtis Brown** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:43 am

I am at paint shop now. Flow down to Longview, Tx to Aerosmith Aviation to check on it. They had her all wrapped up very well. All stripped and no corrosion issues. The control surfaces were being removed. Looks like a good job so far. Seems they have washed the stripper very well. Couple more weeks and may be they will be done. I will let the group know what I think of their work.
Curtis

CraigH · Post by **CraigH** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:31 pm

Just ran across this post trying to research the original paint scheme of my probable new bird.

The plane we're inspecting was done at Aerosmith in Longview TX back in 1993. The paint is absolutely beautiful, and I'd have never noticed the one tiny flaw if the owner hadn't pointed it out. I'm not sure what they charged him, but I'd certainly have no qualms about having them paint another airplane that I owned. One of the nicest paint jobs I've ever seen!