Landing Problems

[pilot1]

With my 170 in a cross wind of 10 knots or more its fine untill the wheels touch down and then you start peddling to try to keep it straight it goes one way then the next its realy like being on ice and my comfidence go out the window. then I get into a super cub and I take on a 20 knot crosswind with no problem. I will try to check the wheel alignement this weekend and see.

Steve

[mrpibb]

Hi Steve, as a fellow Ragwing owner I understand what your saying. Our airplanes are lacking in the roll authority department. When the wind is above 10kts anything off 30 deg to the nose is a real work out. The rudder on the ragwing is what has saved my butt in the past. The problem I have is that with ailerons to the stop in a 15 to 20 kt crosswind, the up wind wing will come up, so what I do is land on the grass if possible, and keep the airplane as straight as possible and allow the plane to slide slightly. If I have to land on pavement Instead of a wheel landing, I pretend I'm doing a short field, I plan on three pointing a slow as possible. This gives me a idea of the control inputs I will need in the flare, so if on short final I cant keep the upwind wing down I know that at touchdown the problem will still exist and at which point I'll land somewhere else. If I can control the roll on final I'll continue with the landing and once I touchdown I dump flaps and brake heavy while keeping the airplane as straight as possible. Keep in mind that on short final when this slow (60-65 mph) you have to be Johny on the spot with the throttle, especially with gusting winds. On take offs, I plan on wheel take offs, aileron full deflection I raise the tail and plant the upwind wheel until I get enough speed for climb, with a 20kt cross wind the airplane will skip downwind, but as long as I start my takeoff run on the upwind side of the runway I only skip as far as 5 to 10 feet total during the take off run.
Keep in mind if I am going to fly just to fly I do not go if the winds are forcasted to be more than 15kts.

During the summer I flew to a local airport, the wind picked up out of nowhere, I say it was gusting to 25kt direct across the runway, even thought the airport has no grass strip I landed on the grass alongside the runway. The airport manager came to me and said that there was no landings and takeoffs on the grass in which I told him I wasn't aiming for the grass in which he then smiled and ohh okay then.
Other than that The ragwings are a pure joy to fly, they look cool, fly faster and slips real nice.

[pilot1]

Hi vic Good to hear from you.
Sounds like good advice. Ime also looking at my wheel alignment I had to work on saturday and tow gliders on sunday but I did check my wheel alignment unloaded but with full fuel my left wheel had about an eighth of an inch of tow out and the right wheel was zero the right leg was swept forward more than the left leg by half an inch (I dont know if this has any effect) accordinging to one other pilot on this web site who had 1/8 inch toe in on his aircraft unloaded, his alignment zeroed when he loaded it up so that probably means I would expect 1/4 inch toe out on the left and an 1/8 inch of toe out on the right which would explain a lot of the handling problems ( they become much more acute when I am carying passengers) I have got 20 Litre ( about 5 gallon )plastic containers and Ime going to load it up and see some time this week. will keep you informed.
ps How do I put a little picture of my bird on the text I send. I have got one on my profile but it doesnt show up on my messages?
Steve

[cessna170bdriver]

ps How do I put a little picture of my bird on the text I send. I have got one on my profile but it doesnt show up on my messages? Steve

Steve,

A check of your profile shows that you are not listed as a member of the Association. Having your avatar show up on yours posts is a member benefit. To join, go to http://cessna170.org/MemberForm.html

A check of the directory shows that we have three members in Australia, but we can always use more!

Miles

[mrpibb]

Steve, how's the soaring down there, I'm working on my sailplane rating and currently flying the 2-32 in which I have a blast in. So far each time I have at least doubled my release height but winters coming and i'll doubt we will get those killer thermal days. I'm hoping to get my rating by next summer.

you mention you have one gear slightly foward of the other, if you remove the trim cover around the gear you will notice some taper shim blocks that hold the gear leg in alignment. With the aircraft raised off the ground by the wings and the gear unloaded if you losen the blocks you can move the gear legs foward and aft. When I did my Pponks I refered to the moment of the gear and set both to it by triangulation, then when I was done and a/c on the ground and loaded I did the axle alignment. On a calm day I sometimes forget I have a taildragger it tracks so straight.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

To add to Miles post Steve, an avator is the picture to the left of the posts like the mug of me and the TIC170A logo.

For photos or graphics included in the text such as this :

or the photo of Vic's plane in his signature, look at this thread: http://www.cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtop ... post+photo . You must have online storage and be computer savvy in order to follow the instructions.

BTW Vic's photo is just the code described in the instructions but included as part of his signature.

Also if you are a TIC170A member notify the moderator directly and ask him to add you to the members list at the forum.

[pilot1]

Sorry Vic I dont know the 2-32 But Ime guessing its a two seater and the way its painted I would say its wooden but I'm only guessing All of our 2 seaterd are fiberglass Uropean gliders like the discus 2 and the DG505 and our base trainer is the Puchacz (Pronounced poohatch ) Also Ive heard all the jokes about the name. It is a good base trainer with 35 in one glide and can do rolls. the other to other machines have glide angles in the low fifties if flown well and make excelent cross country machines. Summer is all most apon us down south and we are all looking forward to a good season Ime going on camp and hoping for a good 500km ar 700km this year. Peope are starting to get more 1000 km triangles now that the higher performance machines are appearing. Yes the Gliding is great down here and we have a lot of overseas visitors that come and stay at the comercial camps and hire top of the line gliders with everything electronic to go and do there dream crosscounty Refer http://www.sportavia.com.au or our club at http://www.vmfg.org.au Thank for the imfo on the legs I will check that out als is there a set amount of forward rake on the legs or do we gust adjust for parallel? P.S how did you support the aircraft by the wings. Could it be lifted by the fuselage and balanced by the wings?

Steve

[mrpibb]

Hi Steve, the 2-32 Schweizer is a all metal ship, it won many international speed races for 200 300 meter courses during 60's and 70's and some altitude records before the fiberglass ship were introduced. It has a 510lb payload, fit two people in the back seat, race between thermals at 130mph and spoiler dive at 150 mph, which for me is a fun ship to learn in. The school uses it primely for rides, but to my gross weight its the perfect trainer. The soaring club were I train has all those high tech euro sailplanes, some of them are simply amazing.

As for jacking the ragwing the Cessna service manual gives a drawing of a jacking fixture, what I did was removed the wing tie down rings and screw in some high strength bolts and jacked both sides at the same time due to the spring gear walking as you raise the aircraft in which you have to be careful when you lower because it can jump off the jacks as the spring gear sideloads when you lower. I believe Cessna shows a cradle for under the fuselage, the A and B models uses a cradle for the wings but with the fuselage cradle its hard to get the gear out because it is placed where the access to the gear bolt is.

Cheers

[pilot1]

Sounds a good Idea Vic I will make somthing up to use the tie down location and let U know how it went. P.S Ive got a mate who's over 6ft 6inch and he's flying a lot of single seaters exceeding there gross pilot wait with no ill effect and achieving good cross country results.

Steve

[dacker]

I HAVE A PUSSYCAT!!
I started this thread a little over a year ago after becoming frustrated with the ground handling of my airplane. Now, I am smiling from ear to ear! I just got my airplane out of annual where I had steel axles, 8.00s installed, and most importantly the wheels aligned. Prior to alignment I had negative camber, toe out on the left, and toe in on the right. Now the gear are pretty much neutral left and right with positive camber. I could tell the difference as soon as I got the tail up on takeoff. Where, before I had to start punching the rudder pedals to stay on centerline, now it tracks straight with little input. Both wheel and three-point landings were great, very easy corrections, once again little input required.

After something over three hundred hours in this 170 fighting every one of the probably 1000-1500 landings, I am amazed. Now I have to worry about becoming complacent. Before I had to make myself give the landings %110 of my concentration, now it just doesn't require the same concentration to stay on centerline. I even was able to stay on centerline with just one wheel planted! I could not do that before.

The 8.00s were a little bit different as far as the stance and how the tail comes down (but then again I don't have the 75 lbs of gear in the back like I usually do). I definitely noticed the brakes are less effective with the bigger tires but nothing too bad.

I think a big thanks goes to Russ for suggesting this! My results sound
just like his.

Now I have a whole new bag of tricks that I can practice.

David

[bsdunek]

Just a note on the bearing adjustment. They are supposed to be pre-loaded. I'm doing this from memory, but I think the way is to hand tighten as much as possible, and then turn 1/6 of a turn to the next cotter pin hole. If they are loose, they will rotate on the axle and damage it. They are not like auto bearings.
Bruce

[GAHorn]

Correctomundo, Bruce! The wheel bearings, after cleaning, repacking, and reinstallation, ... the axle nut, on clean threads, should be tightened by hand as firm as possible with no tool at all. Then rotate the wheel a few turns forwards and aft. Then re-tighten the axle nut by hand only, as tight as humanly possible. (This is a very strict specification only met after a cold Beck's beer has been consumed. If you substitute St. Pauli Girl beer, you have to rotate the wheel one more turn forwards. If you don't have Becks or St. Pauli Girl, you must send a gift certificate of one case of each to George for the double-secret alternative torque specifications...)
Then tighten the axle nut only to the next available position to accept a cotter. The axle nut must never be loose. Cone roller bearings must be pre-loaded, but these must not be overtightened.
Don't get heavy with it,...just tight and then the next cotter hole.

[blueldr]

Why aren't they "like auto bearings"? They're Timken tapered bearings. How are they different from those used on automobiles? And how is the adjustment different?
I've been adjusting wheel bearings on airplanes and automobiles the same way for over sixty five years and I'm screwed up? I've always just figured Timken wheel bearings were all the same when it came time to adjust them.

[GAHorn]

Why aren't they "like auto bearings"? They're Timken tapered bearings. How are they different from those used on automobiles? And how is the adjustment different?
I've been adjusting wheel bearings on airplanes and automobiles the same way for over sixty five years and I'm screwed up? I've always just figured Timken wheel bearings were all the same when it came time to adjust them.

Heh-heh ... ... (I couldn't resist this Dick... it ain't often a whippersnapper gets to do this....especially with you.... ....

....automotive bearing assembly applications have water-tight axle-seals (admittedly not the really big difference)... and bearing preloads are based upon wheel or bearing off-set* and vehicular weight. Their bearing preloads are predicated upon torque-ing to a specified preload, then reducing the preload to the first available lock-setting (cotter position)...while aircraft bearings, unless otherwise specified, are only adjusted to remove axial-looseness and then tightened to the next available lock setting.

* Off-set is what occurs as the result of the actual center of wheelbearing position versus center-of-wheel-load. Automotive wheels usually (not always) have greater offset than aircraft wheels, resulting in different physical sizes of inner/outer wheel bearing cups/cones. (Aircraft inner/outer wheelbearings are usually the same size. In fact they are usually the exact same part number...not common with auto bearings.) Offset can be positive or negative, which along with vehicle weight/purpose, determines inner-versus-outer bearing size and preload.
An example of positive off-set is the ridiculous sight we sometimes see these days when a low-rider type car has wheels which extend way too far outboard of the automobile's fenders, and the tire treads are out there in the sunlight....
Negative offset would be when the outer bearing is distinctly outboard of the wheel center such as is commonly seen on the front axles of 18-wheelers.... the wheel hub is outboard of the tire-tread centers.
A dual-tired assembly on the rear end of an 18-wheeler rear axle would have it's inboard wheel with negative offset ...but the outboard wheel (of the pair) being positively offset.
Hope that description is not too fuzzy....

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Amazing the number of reference books George must carry with him at all times to come up with this stuff. it must be true, he just couldn't make it up.