Pattern procedures

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I'm not a fan of the flap dump because I have found I can control the plane better not dumping them and be just as effective. My partner Leroy on the other hand barely lets the wheels tough the ground and he's dumping flaps. I just roll my eyes like this.

[GAHorn]

....And, if it was a better way to land, Cessna would have detailed it as such in one of their approved publications

Which publication might that be?

I'm doubtful anyone is going to accidentally raise the gear in a 170 because they got confused about what that johnson-bar does.

I'm cautious of testing the brakes before landing for fear of 1) accidentally "setting" the parking brake (if it's not been disabled) prior to touchdown, {How does one know the brakes released after application on take-off? Ans: because the takeoff roll is normal. How does one know the brakes released after application in flight? Ans: Great question in aircraft that don't have brake-pressure indicators!} ... or,... in cold/snow/icy conditions, ....2) freezing the pads to the discs prior to touchdown (because one applied brakes in-flight) which has been known to break wheel--halves and contribute to directional control issues.

[bagarre]

....And, if it was a better way to land, Cessna would have detailed it as such in one of their approved publications

Which publication might that be?

That was sarcasm.

[Poncho73]

I'm cautious of testing the brakes before landing for fear of 1) accidentally "setting" the parking brake (if it's not been disabled) prior to touchdown, {How does one know the brakes released after application on take-off? Ans: because the takeoff roll is normal. How does one know the brakes released after application in flight? Ans: Great question in aircraft that don't have brake-pressure indicators!} ... or,... in cold/snow/icy conditions, ....2) freezing the pads to the discs prior to touchdown (because one applied brakes in-flight) which has been known to break wheel--halves and contribute to directional control issues.

Any scenario is possible, in my case my park brake is disabled and the master cylinders are replaced with smooth shafts so master cyl shaft lock is unlikely. The test is only a light toe tap, for me I like to know in advance whether the system is available prior to touchdown and as you mention without monitoring we have no idea. All of my flying is in northern climates, ice/snow/cold crappy wx.... - freezing a brake pad to a disc isn't an issue when toe testing on the downwind leg because it would have already frozen if there was any water contaminate on the disc post-lift off in freezing conditions. A frozen brake is not addressed in the flight manual but should be handled no differently then any frozen brake landing...plant it hard baby!

[daedaluscan]

I love this thread.

I am a very new pilot, 150 hrs, 50 solo in my 170, mostly in the circuit.

What my suitably crusty old tailwheel instructor taught me was: carb heat, 1800 rpm, slow by pitching up when parallel with the desired point of touchdown,
turn base 1500rpm, aim for 65mph. two notches of flap (I have a B model), trim, half way along base think "too high too low, too fast too slow" and do something about it if needed - reduce power, slip, or add power - on final should be nailed at 65 mph and able to let go of the column (no pressure), gradual power reduction to descend. He would then suggest that I keep it straight (repeatedly and sometimes loudly).

I am fairly happy with my setup now, but am still struggling occasionally with the flare. I seem to do better with more flap, 30 or 40 degrees, but consistently flare a little high and need to add a bit of power. I am gradually increasing my crosswind comfort level.

If I ever speak to him he signs off with "keep it straight"

[DaveF]

I like your crusty old guy's advice. 65 and trimmed on final works great for my B at any flap setting. I normally use 30 degrees. When I first got the airplane I tried flying final at 70, 65, 60, and 55, and found that 65 gave the best balance between descent rate, gust margin, landing distance, and energy for flare.

I used to flare early or balloon because I was afraid of hitting the ground and bouncing. I finally got past that by being consistent with airspeed so I didn't get too slow and drop, and then just letting it land. Just let it land. My problem was too much fiddling in the flare, trying to make the perfect touchdown. By putting the airplane into position to land and letting it do so, my landings are the best I've made in 25 years of flying.

Last week I flew a 210 that I owned seven years ago, and every landing I made was better than any I made back when I owned it. My 170 has really taught me how to fly.

[bagarre]

All this started because I was one of those student pilots that fixated on the instruments instead of looking outside, so my instructor took a sectional and covered up the whole instrument panel in a 7AC Champ while I did pattern work from the rear seat. That was some of the best training I've ever had and that Champ eventually taught me how many cues are available outside of the instrument panel if you pay attention.

The problem with preaching airspeeds and RPMs is that they don't take into account aircraft weight, density altitude and wind speeds. They are fine for ball parking what to expect but if you try to fly the gauges you'll hit the numbers some times, float half way down the runway or need to add power to make the threshold other times. All the while, you'll be confused about why your landings are so inconsistent. The easiest example is the 110 pound student learning to solo with a 250 pound instructor. If the student learns to land by airspeed numbers alone, they will float half way down the runway without the instructor in the plane (and not understand why).

The same is true for take-off. Vx and Vy change with aircraft weight and density altitude.

My tailwheel instructor did similar with me. He covered up everything except oil pressure and temperature and we did hours of pattern work that way in the 170. When flying VFR, there's nothing in the panel that will help you land better than just looking out the window.

[GAHorn]

... aim for 65mph. two notches of flap (I have a B model), trim, ...."

But which flap-sector?
"two notches" can be either 30-degrees.....or 20-degrees....depending upon which sector is installed.
In the case of your 1956 B-model, if still original, two notches is only 20-degrees of flaps.
I've found the B-model to be better-behaved, when lightly loaded, to land with 30-degrees...and when heavily loaded, to land with 40 degrees of flaps.

The best landing advice I've ever received is...not to land! Specifically, regarding wheel landings...instead of trying to land the airplane, try to fly it 1" above the ground without letting it touch. When it does finally touch, slight forward pressure to stick it.
...

The ideal wheel-landing-method is to level-off just slightly before you come over the horizon..... and let the curvature of the earth come up to meet you! (This works best in red airplanes.)

[daedaluscan]

Two notches is 20 degrees for me. I am much more consistent with three.

I try not to obsess with the gauges, and certainly once I have made the runway don't watch the airspeed but I do find it helps me to set up the same way.

[daedaluscan]

Oh yes and red green who cares. BLUE.

[DaveF]

Don't let 'em talk you out of using the ASI! That's what it's there for. The important thing is to arrive at the runway at about the same airspeed every time (in average conditions). Inconsistent landings are the result of inconsistent landing speeds.

[bagarre]

Oh yes and red green who cares. BLUE.

Nice! I'm partial to the blue ones too.

[ralphyoung]

Members. Thank you, thank you, and don't let this thread die! I find it exciting to read and transform myself into the cockpit with my hand on the throttle and dropping my hand to the flap handle. You know, it is to me like learning to ride a unicycle or learning to roll a kayak, twenty people can tell you how or show you and all of a sudden it clicks.

[LBPilot82]

I'm with George on the brake test prior to landing. I was taught to use GUMBLES for a pre-landing checklist: gas, undercarriage, mixture, BRAKES, engine, seatbelts. About a year ago while landing on a nice calm WINDY day in Boulder City (there's humor in there somewhere), I performed my GUMBLES check as always on downwind only to discover my left brake had somehow partially set. I was able to get things under control without bending any metal and could not duplicate the problem on the ground. Upon removal of the brake master cylinders (which have the parking brakes disabled) I found a bent lock-o-seal washer to be the culprit. Since then I quit checking for positive brake pressure before landing. I figure that a slow ground loop caused by no brake pressure is better than trying to land with a locked brake you don't know about.

BTW George, I'm terribly disappointed and will hold you to your claim of NEXT TIME!!

[LBPilot82]

One more thing... for those who fly an A model (I bet it works for the B as well) and have trouble with keeping your eyes off the panel and actually looking outside, I have found that after power reduction abeam the numbers, keeping the bottom of the wing parallel to the horizon will give you VERY good speeds all the way to the runway. This assumes you carry a little power and incrementally add flaps on downwind, base, and final. I used this procedure teaching in Citabrias and Decatholons from the back seat where you can't see the airspeed indicator. Of course, they have a very flat bottom wing which makes it a little easier but you can "interpolate" the wing cord of our 170's just the same. Just a thought...