Estimating project value

[bannerpilot]

Hi all-
I'm a newbie to the association and, hopefully, a soon-to-be 1st-time owner. I'm looking at a 170A that has been storage for 33 years. The airframe was stripped of paint and the interior primed prior to storage and is corrosion and mice-free. The 0-300 had a major overhaul and was "assembly-lubed" prior to being stored indoors in 1977. My question being, how do I go about establishing a reasonable value (ie:offer price) for the project? Thanks in advance for your advice.

[blueldr]

Start Cheap!

[minton]

Take BL's advice. You can sink a large fortune into "Projects". Way to may hidden surprizes and parts are through the roof!

[canav8]

It depends on you. What is your time worth to put it back together? You will never get the money back out. Even the best "All Complete Aircraft" Projects will have hardware that cannot be reused or you will not be able to identify where it will go so you order new replacement hardware. If you have no prior experience with project aircraft you will pay a lot to learn what you need to know. If you are seeking to build an aircraft it can be a rewarding experience. A suggestion would be is to let us know where you are at and maybe a TIC170 member can come and look at your project to help access what it is worth. Sitting engines are never good especially if it is stored in a moist climate. If you were in the desert you would at least have a chance but most people do not know how to pickle an engine correctly either. Doug

[GAHorn]

I rec'd an email from Mike and responded thusly (posted for archival ref's):

First, determine WHY that project was not completed...and WHO has been working on it for all these years. You need documentation and paid invoices which identify that airplane and engine.

If the engine was properly preserved and stored, then it should be a simple matter to boroscope the cylinders for rust and perform a cold compression check. Was it ever started after assembly? or was it merely stored. Is the sump full of oil? or is it dry.
What about the mags (AD notes apply since the last 33 yrs which will likely condemn or require re-build/repair... they may even be useless for aircraft purposes depending upon actual Part Number. Which exact magnetos are installed, part number, and any other odd markings on the dataplates? Example: A "C" stamped on the dataplate indicates an AD/SB complied.)
In ANY case, the mags will have to be disassembled/inspected prior to flight, due simply to shelf-life. Other accys may also suffer from the chronological time-frame, with regard to subsequently issued ADs, Service Bulletins, etc..
Unless the engine was assembled/preserved/recorded by a well-known shop, CRS, etc.., I'd strongly consider dissassembling/inspecting/reassembling that engine prior to installation to check tolerances and torques and replace deteriorated gasket mat'ls. (The term "overhaul" is commonly misued. Most "field overhauls" are actually merely "repairs". This is not disqualifying...my own engine was repaired/assembled and sat for 15 years before being returned to service. But it's a consideration you'll want to know about. Consult your trusted AP/IA with regard to this.) You will need to consider what the labor and sign-off of disassembly/inspection/reassembly will cost you, as well as any discrepancies you might find (out of tolerance cam or crankshaft, internal corrosion, etc.)
If it was stored with oil in it, the sump may suffer from internal corrosion, especially on it's bottom, inside-surface. I've seen them paper-thin and stories abound of folks who find oil leaks after a flight and then their finger or tool punches clean-thru the lower sump just fwd of the carb! (At the very least I'd use a small wooden dowel or broomstick handle-end to probe the sump just behind the fwd sump-drain area, attempting to punch thru it. A boroscope view would be even better. Some have interior repairs using epoxy.)
You indicate it's an O-300, but did not indicate WHICH O-300. Is it an "A"? with an 8-bolt prop flange? Or does it have some other designation/crankshaft. Was it stored with dessicant capsules in the spark plugs/exhausts/oil filler? Have they been changed when they indicated humidity? Was the "assembly-lube" a proper storage/preservative lube? (such as AeroShell 2F), or was it common engine oil? (These are only SOME of the steps considered necessary for proper storage, and are offered as bargaining/discussion-points.)
In any event, from a strictly monetary standpoint, you should not consider it an "overhauled" engine, unless it is well-documented/properly preseved by a trusted shop/CRS.

What prop? Make/model/overall length (tip-to-tip), condition, records.

Avionics? Most projects have none, or obsolete (same as none except may have negative value because they require removal/disposal/rewiring.)

The rest of the project would involve determining the completeness and corrosion, and documentation. Are all the logs available? Do the logs accurately represent the actual airframe? (Is this possibly a "parts-plane"? I strongly urge folks to avoid "parts-planes". Any indication that the datatag/logs are from a different airframe than the one presented is a huge red-flag, and worth consideration of a report to authorities. It is the prime method of aircraft theft/illegal-conversion.)

Have you had an aircraft title-search performed? Did you include the engine serial number in that search? Are there any outstanding liens? (including storage fees?) Does the seller have invoices indicating the "overhaul" was PAID in full? (You don't need an engine with an open invoice and 3 decades of interest against it from some shop in Oklahoma.)

In short, do your homework/paperwork as if you were buying real estate in west Texas. A project-plane does not equate to a used airplane. A used airplane, even a poor one but complete, and needful of work but capable of flight is worth something. A project, at most, is worth half. Depending upon WHERE and HOW it's stored may reduce that amount significantly.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards
George
PS: I once spent considerable money to inspect/purchase an airplane with an old lien against it, placed by a now-defunct bank which was absorbed years earlier by a larger bank-corporation who had no interest in researching old wharehoused paper archives to confirm an owner 30 years earlier had actually paid-off his loan, and the defunct-bank simply failed to notify FAA to release the lien. (It is COMMON that lienholders fail to release liens registered with FAA.) I gave up on that airplane because of the banks lack-of-interest, I could never get a "clear" title, which means no future buyer could either, nor would any bank make a loan on it.
An acquaintance landed his twin Cessna at an out-of-state FBO who took-possession of it for unpaid repairs years earlier. It seems a previous owner had skipped-out on engine work and the FBO had a judgment/mechanic's lien against the airplane which FAA knew nothing about. (FAA also knows nothing about IRS impoundment-orders.) It cost him almost $15K to get his airplane released.
I once bought a Baron from the son of a famous, 20-years-deceased Florida FBO owner. The title search was clear. I wrote a check for the airplane and the son signed the Bill-of-Sale. The problem, discovered two years later and solved after spending another $5K in lawyer fees, was that the son was never an officer of the corporation/FBO, which was the registered owner of that airplane. His DAD was the CEO/founder of the FBO, which was subsequently purchased by another after the father's death. Although well-known in local circles that the Baron was personal/family property... technically it belonged to the new FBO, and should have been re-registered 20 years earlier during the settlement of the deceased's estate.
Be CERTAIN the seller is actually the registered owner, and signs the Bill of Sale EXACTLY as the FAA registration reads. If this is a project which has passed from owner-to-owner to UNregistered owner...you will want to establish that each and every tranfer of ownership was legal and documented, especially if each transfer was not registered with FAA.

[W.J.Langholz]

Banner
I'm one of those guys that the "Glass is 1/2 FULL" type of guy so my responses are always maybe more "optimistic" than some.

If you really want to do this "Go for it"..... but all the while, be doing the resto as a Hobby and use disposable income on it with the thought that you will never make any money or profit if you ever sell it. Yes you will be much farther ahead by finding something that is in good rig and maybe just need some smurfin up. However there is something to said about doing a ground up resto on something. I have never done and airplane, maybe someday, but I have done a 1/2 doz cars several pickups several tractors. I either ended up trading on something or selling them outright. By the time I figure what I had in it and broke even on the parts but never made enough to cover my labor. All that being said ....besides keeping me out of the bar at night or something that wasteful with my time, it is Very rewarding when it is all done. My first project, because of lack of time and money, it took me 5 years to complete so you need to stay diciplined over all long period of time. One of our projects was a 68 Mustang that my son and I spent many hours on....that was priceless!!!!!

So like I started with ....don't go into it thinking that you will ever make any money or that it is some kind of investment that will pay you back becuase it won't. If you have the time and resourses ......Do it .... it is a great reward and self gratifying.



W.

[bannerpilot]

Thank you all for your advice. If this works out, I'm planning on this being my one and only airplane for the rest of my flying life. It would be nice if my eight yr old son ends up flying it someday. It will be the family VFR airplane and I want to do this correctly. But the big question, of course, is the engine. A boroscope will go along way toward an answer. I'll keep you all posted. Any and all advice is welcome at any time.

[jrenwick]

If you want an airplane to fly and are concerned about cost, then buy one that you can fly immediately, with no indication of issues that will need to be worked on in the next few years. Pay what you need to to get it, and consider it a bargain. That's the best advice I've ever heard, and in 38 years of aircraft ownership (4 different airplanes), I've found it to be true.

[GAHorn]

If you want an airplane to fly and are concerned about cost, then buy one that you can fly immediately, with no indication of issues that will need to be worked on in the next few years. Pay what you need to to get it, and consider it a bargain. That's the best advice I've ever heard, and in 38 years of aircraft ownership (4 different airplanes), I've found it to be true.

Amen! For a "flyer"....ready-to-go with the family aboard, ...Buy the best example you can find and pay what it takes. A C170 (any model) in fresh-restored (SunNFun/Oshkosh-truly-like-new) almost regardless-of-price, is a real bargain when compared to similar-models aircraft (say a 172) with 10-20-30 yrs of wear, which still carry prices twice and three-times the-amount.

[Oddball]

Greetings from the "Land of World Cup Soccer Fever Down Under"

My first post as a Newbie on this forum

As a first time buyer "counselor" (Heard too many unhappy buyer's weeping in the bar after a "cheap/bargain" deal) the advice offered above by jrenwick is right on the button!!

Too many "newbies" or new PPL's go chasing cheapies - doesn't work for most of us with our hearts in/around the clouds - just look at how many incomplete projects pass from hopeful hands to hopeful hands - I've been there done that it - did not work for me either

Q1 = Main Objective - do you want to build/restore or fly ??

Pick 1 not both - Can't choose?

Then flip a coin - if you like the result Go ahead - If you don't, Go ahead with the other choice - follow your gut/heart - not your rational/bank account ruled brain

If build/restore - pay as little as possible, your restoration costs will always be more than you expect - better explained already above (Double the cost X triple the time !!)

If it's to Fly - Oh Yes Please!!

Go out and buy an airworthy, clean machine - rather take a partner or 2 into the deal if the $$$ are insufficient - it's fun to share anyway!!

My 5c worth for the day

[lowNslow]

If you want an airplane to fly and are concerned about cost, then buy one that you can fly immediately, with no indication of issues that will need to be worked on in the next few years. Pay what you need to to get it, and consider it a bargain. That's the best advice I've ever heard, and in 38 years of aircraft ownership (4 different airplanes), I've found it to be true.

Gotta agree with John here - unless you really have a desire to work on this project for the fun of it, you will come out money ahead by buying someone elses completed project. Just look at the deal George got!

[GAHorn]

Hey, Matt.... WELCOME!!! Good words, too!

If you want an airplane to fly and are concerned about cost, then buy one that you can fly immediately, ...Just look at the deal George got!

This is so very true!

For those who don't already know the story of N146YS, let me repeat a bit of it.

I don't deserve ANY credit for it's restoration. (I take a bit for it's current condition, but none for it's return-to-like-new condition by Bill Goebel, who'd started on it as a student-mechanic project at Embry-Riddle and worked on it for almost two decades.)

I too, had looked at a lot of airplanes that had loving words applied by nostalgic, admiring sellers....only fo find so many of them were not only ill-represented...but quite a few of them with honest-to-God airworthiness issues. To point them out to the seller would only have started a hurtful argument...in typical fashion, they would have refused to see the defects. And... it would have given the wrong message...they would have assumed I was arguing PRICE, when in-fact, I was no longer a potential buyer of their airplane.

Well.....on to N146YS:
I first became aware of it online and, while it's description was accurately portrayed as an airplane restored to as-new as Cessna ever made one... I thought the price (about $20K too much) was way too much for what common-opinions said C170's were worth. I moved on to looking at airplanes priced more in-line with rumor...yet showed the wear/tear one might expect for 50-yr old airplanes.

Then, one day while flying in and for my own state of Texas (in other words, travelling long distances to look at rumors is expensive) I found myself searching for a breakfast while awaiting passengers.....and driving down the flight-line peered into a hangar and saw her sitting in the back corner with "For Sale" banners on her prop.
My co-pilot that day, Jeremy, was on his first day at-work with the state-of-Texas flight dept, and he surely thought I was crazy as he observed the following to occur.
I walked into the hangar and around the airplane and realized it was JUST EXACTLY like a new Cessna in a showroom! It had new paint/polish, all new Tefzel* wiring, all new plumbing, all new components, an interior resembling a corporate jet's quality, and an engine compartment that could serve breakfast. Spotless! New cadmium-plated hardware everywhere one looked. I was truly amazed. It looked like a Smithsonian exhibit...not a seller's offering. (It's previous-internet-pricing now seemed entirely in-line with the actual condition of the airplane.)
The hangar-keeper (we'll call him "John"), came out and introduced himself as the seller/owner's friend. He told me about the Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun judging awards and the 16 yrs the owner spent restoring it . He showed me the presentation materials, signs, letters-of-appreciation from EAA, etc.., and two photo-albums similar to wedding-albums which documented the 16 yrs of disassembly, restoration, and reassembly. He told me it all goes with the sale. I asked how much was being asked, and he responded with a price about $20K below what it was previously thought capable of...a price I'd previously thought ridiculous...but now realized not out-of-line at all, considering it's actual condition....I was hoping to be somewhere near capable of affording it...(A month earlier, I had sold my previous airplane and had exactly $50K in my airplane budget.) ...when he said, "Well, he's contemplating a low-ball-offer he received yesterday of $42K."

Fighting the choking feeling of my pounding heart-in-my-throat, and trying to appear bored, I responded, "Well, what do you think he'd actually take?"
"Well, forty-THREE would beat forty-two", he replied, sounding half-joking.
"Why don't you call him and tell him I'll pay him $43K cash, if he'll sign off the annual again.", knowing that the condition of the airplane would justify a pencil-whipped sign-off by the A&P/IA seller. Jeremy (who had known me exactly the same length of time as he'd now worked for his new employer...about 3 hours), doubled-over and started coughing and choking on spittle.
John called from the privacy of his inner-office and visited on the phone a few minutes, then returned to the hangar, and said, "You'll need to leave a security-deposit, but he said he'd take your offer. He needs to close on a house next week."
I wrote a check and took Jeremy to breakfast. A total of about 20 minutes had elapsed.

I subsequently made a side-deal with the seller to install Whelan wing-tip strobes. "You realize that's not original, don't you?", he said.
"I hate to tell you this but I intend to actually operate this museum on a grass ranch strip and I do a lot of flying at night."
"Well", ...he paused,..." That's what Cessna designed it for, I guess."

I ran a title-check, expecting to pick up the airplane in the next day or so, but the seller informed me it'd take two weeks to perform the annual. (He actually did a full-blown re-inspection of his own work.) I also hired my own IA and we drove up during the inspection process for my IA to also have a look at it, check the seller's work, and inspect the records. In two weeks I picked up my pride-and-joy and have had 11 years of virtual trouble-free flying all over the U.S. and parts of Canada.

Meanwhile, those of my buddies who'd heard I'd paid over $40K for an "old 170" criticized and ridiculed me behind my back over and over again with "even the best 170's aren't worth more than $35K....you can buy them ALL DAY for $25! George is an idiot." (this latter might be true)

Meanwhile, My most expensive annual since has been less than $600, mostly in service items.

Why? Because my annuals are "owner assisted" and I keep it in the best mechanical condition I can, and I STARTED OUT with what was essentially a NEW airplane! What did my $43K buy me? It bought an entirely corrosion-free airplane (because it's had 85% of all it's sheet metal and structure completely replaced and the interior polyamide-epoxy primed) with a fresh-restored engine, starter/generator/exhaust/accy's, fresh prop ovhl, all ovhld instruments, new interior, all new cables, pulleys, wiring, reskinned controls, all new glass, all new plumbing through-OUT (think of rubber vent lines, fuel lines, static/pitot lines, fuel selector valve and drains and gauges), new antennas, simple but new avionics,... (In short, there was NOTHING to do but put gas in this thing and go flying...all for only a few thousand more than the "average" on the market which would need serious work shortly, if not immediately.
Well, I can't tell you the woes I hear from some who, in what they thought was a budget-buy,... bought "airworthy" airplanes with "pre-buy" inspections who in subsequent annuals are having to replace exhausts, carb air-boxes, battery boxes, landing gear/brakes, tailwheel brackets, rudders, vertical stab brackets, elevator torque-tubes, wing-attach blocks, top-overhaul the cylinders, etc...(and desperately searching for some of these hard-to-find parts in whatever condition they can be found)..being nickel-and-dimed to death until they are disgusted with their entire experience, while they've ridden around in peeling, dried, chalky-paint and ratty interiors and looking at quirky, erratic instruments and radios, and seeing the world thru oil-drops on crazed plexiglas.

Having re-read my own words above while proof-reading, I become aware of the "snootiness" of this description. I do NOT mean it that way at all. I'm only trying to pass along the word...if you truly enjoy the results of taking a worn piece of equipment and returning it to a thing of beauty with your own hands...and then plan to enjoy the immense pleasure of flying in that beautiful machine....then,if possible, buy a project that is complete and flying so you'll know you have all the main pieces. If you intend to FLY, however...then buy the BEST you can find and pay whatever it takes! You will be many many dollars ahead.

Just my own idiotic opinion. (PS: After almost twenty years of real-world operations It looks used compared to Steve Jacobsen's 170-A model, and anyone who loves 170's should also see Miles Bowens, and Paul Woods, and Richard Pulley's, and Dwayne Shockey's and Jim Wildharber's and .... so many, many others in our wonderful group. (The only overpriced airplane is an under-cared-for airplane.)

It's not for sale.

(italics indicates updated edits) as of 4/6/18

Front Cover Cessna Owner Magazine, May '97

[bimmer1980]

beautiful 170!!

back to the original poster--did you end up with the project? Just curious on the ball park figure of the project if you don't mind me asking...

I'm in the current situation of looking at a plane that would need some work and I'm trying to assign a value to it....

Brad