Landing problems, bounces...

[sanships]

I finally finished my 4 year project and now I have been released for solo. I was taught to 3 point and still I am learning it. My problem is I sometimes feel that the roll control is too sluggish during flare when coming in at 70mph short final 20 deg flap and it is hard to keep wings level to prevent bounces. This tends to distract me from the landing flare which starts to overload me then I start doubting my ability to stay in the center line which all ends in a go-around. I have tried to fly a bit faster but all this experimenting is starting to reduce my confidence in the plane. Mine is the only 170 flying ion the Philippines and there is only 1 instructor and he only does 3 point landing. Maybe you have a solution to boost my confidence. I have read all the other threads including other web sites for tailwheel flying. I fly solo and next time I will try to put some weight in the baggage compartment to help out with the CG. I have total of 20 hours in tailwheel and 10 hours in the 170.

[voorheesh]

Alvin,
From your post, it sounds like your instructor has enough confidence in you to let you solo. This is very important and hopefully you two are in communication and you have some on the spot guideance as you build experience. Don't lose your self confidence. After you gain experience all this will get alot easier and then you will have to worry about complacency. You mention bounces and problems with roll control. Bounces usually are caused by touch down on the main landing gear before the tailwheel contacts the runway. When this happens, the C.G. (behind the main gear) continues down and increases the angle of attack (wing) which gives a momentary increase in lift which results in the airplane becomming airborne again. It feels like a bounce. when this happens, you start running out of energy (airspeed) and the flight controls become less effective. Roll issues can be caused by winds/turbulence or simple miss application of the flight controls. If you feel uncomfortable in this situation, a go around is usually a good idea and can be easily accomplished at a light weight and near sea level. Make sure you are within CG limits ie. run a weight and balance calculation. On your approaches, try to mentally relax and get used to the site picture in a Cessna 170 as it approaches a runway and enters a landing flare. Try some low approaches where you don't have the pressure of making a landing but practice airspeed and attitude (pitch, yaw, & roll) control. Fly over the runway at about 5 feet and do a go around. Do not over control. Use the aileron and rudder TOGETHER. This airplane is one of the easiest to 3 point or full stall land. The attitude/site picture is almost the same as when you sit in the airplane at rest on the ground. Spend some time on the ground, maybe on a taxiway and take that in. Finally, when you flare for landing you must take care to focus your eyes at a distance(in front of you) that will allow you to judge your height and directional control. If you look too close, you will run into the runway and surely bounce. If you look too far you will probably float or stall too high. I had an old instructor who used to say "look at the trees" meaning the end of the runway. What he really meant was look for the attitude and runway view that tells you this airplane is ready to land. flare gently and when all 3 wheels are on the ground smoothly pull the yoke full aft and keep it STRAIGHT. Keep at it buddy! Practice practice practice! Don't be ashamed to take your instructor up with you. Keep reading this forum because there is alot of good experience here.

[voorheesh]

Alvin, One more thought. 70mph on short final is probably too fast. 70 is an ok approach speed but over the fence it should be slowing to 55-60 and when you flare, you are trying to stall the plane 44-45 or so, inches above the runway. Others will probably have good ideas. Good luck.

[mit]

70 is too fast quit looking at the Airspeed indicator and fly the airplane.

[1SeventyZ]

It's just a fact that the aileron authority gets more sluggish with the low airspeeds on rollout. You just have to get more aggressive and use more deflection, which can feel kind of weird if you have the original control wheels and you're used the more modern ram's horn design found in modern Cessnas. I'm a fairly low time 170 pilot also, and have had the same thoughts. Is it the ergonomics of the wheel? The aileron gear ratio? It's just me I think.

In light or steady winds or I like to approach at 65-70 mph on final, but slow it down to 60 mph on short, and I almost never have problems with bouncing or excess energy on rollout. One thing I learned a few years ago was to find a good approach attitude and dial that in with trim so you have a nice steady sink instead of pointing the noise right at the runway. It makes it much easier to correct with a little shot of power if you feel you're low.

[sanships]

It's just a fact that the aileron authority gets more sluggish with the low airspeeds on rollout. You just have to get more aggressive and use more deflection, which can feel kind of weird if you have the original control wheels and you're used the more modern ram's horn design found in modern Cessnas. I'm a fairly low time 170 pilot also, and have had the same thoughts. Is it the ergonomics of the wheel? The aileron gear ratio? It's just me I think.

In light or steady winds or I like to approach at 65-70 mph on final, but slow it down to 60 mph on short, and I almost never have problems with bouncing or excess energy on rollout. One thing I learned a few years ago was to find a good approach attitude and dial that in with trim so you have a nice steady sink instead of pointing the noise right at the runway. It makes it much easier to correct with a little shot of power if you feel you're low.

That observation is right. The amount of pull necessary is quite long during the flare that my elbow is starting to hit the seatback requiring me to use my wrist for the last part of the pull. This is specially annoying when there is a left cross wind and the yoke touches my leg at the same time. I am 5'8"/185 lbs. and have to slide my seat all the way up to the first stop. is this similar to what everyone is experiencing with the original yoke? I can have a smoother pull when I slide the seat 1 stop back but I have to almost straighten my legs to reach the pedals. The yoke seems pretty close during cruise, about 9" from my belly, which seems quite near to me. So at 65mph, I have to pull a bit more and it starts getting awkward/restrictive during the final big pull.

Don't worry, I am not giving up. It is just very frustrating that i can land tricycle gear 172's and pipers well consistently that this is getting me mad at myself. I have made a few good 3 pointers but can't seem to do it with confidence. I just feel that the moment I bounce, I start getting behind the plane and have to go around.

My instructor is very busy and goes a lot back to the USA for business so I'm stuck practicing without an instructor for another 2 weeks. I know I can figure this out by practicing but maybe you guys might have some mental notes or pictures of what it should feel like or look like to make it easier to catch mistakes. I practrice solo early mornings so winds are light.

What is your tire pressure when landing on hard surface runways? Where is your usual CG range? How do you make sure the tailwheel touches down first and kills lift. When do you cut power when doing 3 point landings? over the numbers or after breaking the glide before the flare? What is your usual flap setting for light winds within 20 deg of runway heading?

I appreciate all your comments.

[Robert Eilers]

Sanships,

Try placing 40 lbs of balast in the baggage compartment - assuming there is nothing there now.

[GAHorn]

.... The amount of pull necessary is quite long during the flare that my elbow is starting to hit the seatback requiring me to use my wrist for the last part of the pull. This is specially annoying when there is a left cross wind and the yoke touches my leg at the same time. I am 5'8"/185 lbs. and have to slide my seat all the way up to the first stop. is this similar to what everyone is experiencing with the original yoke? I can have a smoother pull when I slide the seat 1 stop back but I have to almost straighten my legs to reach the pedals. The yoke seems pretty close during cruise, about 9" from my belly, which seems quite near to me. So at 65mph, I have to pull a bit more and it starts getting awkward/restrictive during the final big pull. ....

Alvin... are you certain your rudder pedals are properly rigged? Each rudder pedal only exerts a "pull" on a cable attached to the rudder. So if you push the left pedal, it only applies a pull on the cable which pulls the rudder to the left. If that cable is stretched/short or routed thru broken pully-brackets (which allow the calbe to "sag" with excessive length) then the pedals will be too far forward.
This might explain why you feel you must sit so far forward in the seat tracks. This forward seating is a possible reason you are too close to the yoke and why you run out of up-elevator. I believe you need to slide your seat aft.
Adjust your seat so that when you push full rudder with the BALL of your foot, that you are just-barely-capable of applying full rudder against the STOPS. (And CHECK that when your rudder pedal is fully depressed...that the rudder bell-crank at the bottom of your rudder is placed firmly against the mechanical stop at the rear of the fuselage. Keep in mind that air-pressure will tend to stretch the cable while inflight, so be certain that full rudder pedal application FIRMLY places the rudder fully against the mechanical stops. Otherwise your rudder cables are too long, broken, stretched, or out-of-adjustment.)

As for the roll authority of the ailerons, if they are properly rigged/adjusted, it may be that you are actually OVER-controlling roll during the flare/landing. (If aileron cable tensions are loose then they may appear to have sloppy authority, so check for this as well.)
I see a tendency for some clients to "saw wood" as very common while instructing. The result is that an inadvertent roll-input causes the student/client to beieve the airplane is rolling, so opposite aileron application is made to over-correct it,...then that over-correction is cancelled... and the airplane gives the impression of being non-responsive. In actuality... the client "see-saws" the ailerons almost continuously during the landing approach. See if your instructor can observe this behaviour in YOUR landing approachs. (left/right/left/right/left/right aileron applications.)
In other words.... SLOW DOWN the control inputs and allow the natural stability of the airplane to do it's intended purpose.

Also, keep in mind that a 3-point landing is a STALL. The advice voorheesh gives to practice flying the length of the runway at 5-foot altitude, while practicing controlling the airplane's relationship to the runway is GOOD ADVICE and GOOD LEARNING TECHNIQUE. It's a wonderful way to discover that you actually have excellent control of the aircraft's drift across centerline due to cross-winds, and your control of altitude and speed can be much improved after only a few such low-passes.
Finally, when you have that low-pass fully conquered.... then simply pull the power off and MAINTAIN that 5-fott altitude (2 feet is even better, of course.) Deliberately STALL the airplane only a foot or two above the pavement and ... VOILA! It's a 3-point landing! The tailwheel should actuall touch FIRST! Don't try to actually make a 3-point completely simultaneous. And don't forget to maintain directional control immediately after touchdown.

[N2865C]

Overinflated tires can exaggerate the bounce. The Owners Manual calls for 24 psi... You might want to try 22 psi for a little more give until you build your confidence.

[Metal Master]

I will agree with what is being said here but underline a couple of comments like this.

If you are using the same run way for most of your practice do this. When you taxi onto the runway for take off stop. Look out of the windshield. With the tail on the ground the picture you see over the nose is the same picture you should see on a three point landing attitude. 70 Miles per hour is to fast.

Think about what your stall speed is - 70 MPH is way above that. Have your instructor practice low speed handling with you at altitude. Have him show you how safe the airplane is at those speeds. At 60 MPH over the numbers and close to the ground you are in ground affect and the airplane is still flying. You are still not at the stall until you slow down and actually stall the airplane. If you are not stalled you can still balloon up at sixty mph. Your throttle should have already been pulled all the way off at this point. Slowly pulling back the stick at this point and not climbing will bring you to the stall point and you will be in the three point attitude.

Flying down the runway 6 inches off of the ground will show the sight picture of what the airplane looks like when you are flying down the runway close to a wheel landing attitude not to a wheel landing attitude. Learn to see the difference.

Rigging issues and landing gear alignment issues aside the Cessna 170 airplane is one of the sweetest tail dragger airplanes to land I have ever flown. I love flying my airplane. What you are experiencing is the difference of actually learning to fly a proper landing in a Cessna 172 that you were never taught. Once you master landing the 170 you will be amazed at the changes in the way you land a Cessna 172 and how making a real full stall landing in a 172 becomes even more graceful. The 170 and 170A have little or no dihedral the other airplanes you have flown do. Those other airplanes have slightly more self leveling characteristic but after you learn the 170 you will never pay a lot of attention to the difference you will just fly the airplane.