Hi there. I'm looking at a 170B that a friend's brother has for sale. This aircraft has several mods and the asking price is higher than most. Today I leaned that this 170 was involved in 2 accidents, one which caused it to turn turtle and end up on it's back. It was listed as having sustained "substantial damage".
This is will be my first powered A/C and I obviously feel concerned about the damage history WRT to the price being asked.
Any advice is welcome and appreciated.
regards
~Marc
Damage History
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Marc
First it is not unusual with these planes because of their age to find damage history so that in itself would not be a concern for me.
The concern is that the repairs are done correctly and legally.
As for the price verses repair history well it's hard to say. If the repair consisted of patched parts verses new parts obviously in most cases the new part repair is worth more.
For example if an aileron was damaged and repaired legally with a patch it wouldn't have the same value as a new replacement aileron.
First it is not unusual with these planes because of their age to find damage history so that in itself would not be a concern for me.
The concern is that the repairs are done correctly and legally.
As for the price verses repair history well it's hard to say. If the repair consisted of patched parts verses new parts obviously in most cases the new part repair is worth more.
For example if an aileron was damaged and repaired legally with a patch it wouldn't have the same value as a new replacement aileron.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
hi guys
when looking for the 4 airplanes
i have owned in the past,
i was always inclined to avoid
damaged aircraft.
(even is fixed properly)
the thot of a plane ending up on it's back
sends, maybe not a chill, but a tingle down my spine.
especially with an early 170
as (i hope this is right) the wings had less dihedral.
now i'd love to restore a damaged plane,
but....since it iwould be such a colossal hassle
to do so,
i'll pass for now.
iowa
when looking for the 4 airplanes
i have owned in the past,
i was always inclined to avoid
damaged aircraft.
(even is fixed properly)
the thot of a plane ending up on it's back
sends, maybe not a chill, but a tingle down my spine.
especially with an early 170
as (i hope this is right) the wings had less dihedral.
now i'd love to restore a damaged plane,
but....since it iwould be such a colossal hassle
to do so,
i'll pass for now.
iowa
1951 170A 1468D SN 20051
1942 L-4B 2764C USAAC 43-572 (9433)
AME #17747
An airplane with "damage history" that's been properly repaired and documented is worth a whole lot more to me than one with "NO damage history" that's actually had damage repaired and nothing said about it (or "minor" damage notations that were actually major damages.)
In the first case, the damage was an honest matter. In the second, it's fraud, and no telling the troubles you'll likely have with it down the road both in maintenance AND in legality.
In the first case, the damage was an honest matter. In the second, it's fraud, and no telling the troubles you'll likely have with it down the road both in maintenance AND in legality.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Thanks to everyone for the information. I agree that knowing the aircraft flipped over gets my attention. I also beleive that a correctly repaired airframe can be just as good at the original.
For now I've hired an IA to look the logs over and make sure that everything is on the up and up. Obviously if the logs look funny regarding the repairs I'll pass on this one at the asking price. I certainly don't want it to cost me more dollars and headaches down the road.
Now about a prepuchase inspection: How much should one cost? This A/C was annualed in June, but I understand there is a new AD that just came out on the Avcon 180 Lycoming Hartzel prop. This A/C has an 0360 and Hartzel, so it may be one of the affected units. Anyone know the specifics? Can I identify the prop without pulling anything apart?
thanks
~Marc
For now I've hired an IA to look the logs over and make sure that everything is on the up and up. Obviously if the logs look funny regarding the repairs I'll pass on this one at the asking price. I certainly don't want it to cost me more dollars and headaches down the road.
Now about a prepuchase inspection: How much should one cost? This A/C was annualed in June, but I understand there is a new AD that just came out on the Avcon 180 Lycoming Hartzel prop. This A/C has an 0360 and Hartzel, so it may be one of the affected units. Anyone know the specifics? Can I identify the prop without pulling anything apart?
thanks
~Marc
Marc... do not simply ask a mechanic to look a plane over. It will do you no good when you later ask him how he could have overlooked such a serious matter as XXXX. You cannot hold him accountable for oversights regarding airworthiness items unless you have had him perform an annual inspection. There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection. (no legal definition) There is only an "annual inspection" that has a legal definition that an inspector can be held accountable for.Plummit wrote:Thanks to everyone for the information. I agree that knowing the aircraft flipped over gets my attention. I also beleive that a correctly repaired airframe can be just as good at the original.
For now I've hired an IA to look the logs over and make sure that everything is on the up and up. Obviously if the logs look funny regarding the repairs I'll pass on this one at the asking price. I certainly don't want it to cost me more dollars and headaches down the road.
Now about a prepuchase inspection: How much should one cost? This A/C was annualed in June, but I understand there is a new AD that just came out on the Avcon 180 Lycoming Hartzel prop. This A/C has an 0360 and Hartzel, so it may be one of the affected units. Anyone know the specifics? Can I identify the prop without pulling anything apart?
thanks
~Marc
See: http://cessna170.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... inspection
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
Thanks for the advice. After reading the post you referred me to, I agree that having the A/C inspected is a good idea. The 170 I'm looking at is priced at the top of the food chain, using other sales and "for-sales" as a barometer.
That, coupled with the fact that this purchase will represent a sizeable chunk of my discretionary income/savings, makes it sound like good insurance.
I'll talk to the A&P about doing a full annual and see what he says. I'm sure that owner will go along with it though he'll say it's a waste of time and $$$. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
regards
~Marc
That, coupled with the fact that this purchase will represent a sizeable chunk of my discretionary income/savings, makes it sound like good insurance.
I'll talk to the A&P about doing a full annual and see what he says. I'm sure that owner will go along with it though he'll say it's a waste of time and $$$. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
regards
~Marc
If you are a seller of an aircraft, you'll be less interested in any inspection that may have a higher likelihood of discovering discrepancies in an airplane you're trying to sell.
If you are an inspector, you may be less interested in any inspection that may have a higher risk of your liability. (The same money is earned for equal number hours spent "looking" as spent "inspecting".)
Do not allow either person's opinion have much sway with you. YOU should decide how much to risk your money and your life. Not them. My 2 cents.
If you are an inspector, you may be less interested in any inspection that may have a higher risk of your liability. (The same money is earned for equal number hours spent "looking" as spent "inspecting".)
Do not allow either person's opinion have much sway with you. YOU should decide how much to risk your money and your life. Not them. My 2 cents.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
An airplane the age and type of our airplanes is a very rare bird indeed that has not had some more or less serious damage in its lifetime.
I've seen a good many 'No Damage History" airplanes where Cessna, for some obscure reason, used awfully large headed rivits on the belly near the gear box area.
It's really a shame the no manufacturer ever really pursued much effort to develop an airplane that could talk. We would'nt have to depend on log book entries.
I've seen a good many 'No Damage History" airplanes where Cessna, for some obscure reason, used awfully large headed rivits on the belly near the gear box area.
It's really a shame the no manufacturer ever really pursued much effort to develop an airplane that could talk. We would'nt have to depend on log book entries.
BL
That might be true the majority of the time, but not always. I had the privelege of owning a true no damage history 170B for awhile. A very thorough look at the airframe verified what the logbooks stated. Rare, but not impossible.bradbrady wrote:Guys,
What scares me more is a clean logbook for a 50 plus year old aircraft! If there isn't some kind of damage loged check it, out or run away as fast as you can!!!!
brad
Craig Helm
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
Graham, TX (KRPH)
2000 RV-4
ex-owner 1956 Cessna 170B N3477D, now CF-DLR
Craig,
I didn't want to send the message that I probabaly did! Dad has just the type of AC you are talking about. What joged my mind was, the 1979 Bellanca i'm working on now, The logs are squeeky clean, but after checking the AC out I have found several problems. They have been recitifyed now, but I just fixed the to-kill-you, items. there is a lot of TLC that still needs to put into this AC! And it's only 27 years old!
brad
I didn't want to send the message that I probabaly did! Dad has just the type of AC you are talking about. What joged my mind was, the 1979 Bellanca i'm working on now, The logs are squeeky clean, but after checking the AC out I have found several problems. They have been recitifyed now, but I just fixed the to-kill-you, items. there is a lot of TLC that still needs to put into this AC! And it's only 27 years old!
brad
I've decided to pass on the 170 that I was looking at. It has a lot of nice upgrades and looks very clean, but the damage history it has worries me. If I had the skills to work on it then I might feel differently, but I'm just not knowledgeable enough to feel comfortable.
I sure do appreciate everyone's advice though!
regards
~Marc
I sure do appreciate everyone's advice though!
regards
~Marc
