landing

[rudymantel]

Eric, I find that a botched wheelie can usually be made into a respectable
three pointer. But I do like wheel landings- I make them 99% of the time. Except when I have a load in the back, which is rare, and then a three pointer just seems natural. (Worst landing I ever made ina DC-3 was in Havana with a heavy load in the rear, which I forgot to trim out for).
Rudy

[dacker]

Ditto on the botched wheelies, I usually make absolutely sweet three pointers when I botch my Wheelies !
David

[4-Shipp]

Actually, I have been known to salvage a botched wheel landing with a three pointer as well, though I rarely, if ever have to do that . (No...really...).

I should have clarified that recommendation as being directed towards Gary and his initial experience in the 170. Gary, as you gain proficiency, and you quickly will, you will become comfortable doing many different combinations of things as you land. I figure I am approaching 1000 landings in my 170 and it surprises me less and less each time. In the early days if a landing was less than perfect, I wasn’t sure what to expect – bounce, veer, whatever – but as I came to know the airplane better I could anticipate how it would react before it ever touched down. When you know what’s coming it is easier to react and act accordingly to salvage the situation. Again, fly a lot and have a blast. It is a great plane!

[CraigH]

Up to about 20 landings now in the 170. Conversion to a 3pt is how I've dealt with my few bouncy wheelies as well. So far though, the 170 is the easiest aircraft to wheel land that I've flown so far. The 140 and Citabria (other steel gear planes I've owned) seemed to be a lot more bouncy. I actually find my self preferring to do wheelies in the 170 - a first for me in any airplane.

[GAHorn]

Actually, I have been known to salvage a botched wheel landing with a three pointer as well, though I rarely, if ever have to do that . ...

Me too, Bruce! I have been known to salvage a botched wheel landing with a botched three pointer as well!

[rudymantel]

Whether an airplane makes nice wheel landings depends not only on the "bounciness" of the gear but even more on the gear geometry. The farther back the landing gear is, the easier it is to wheel land.
You'll almost never see a Pitts wheeled on- the gear is quite far forward and wheel landings can be quite excitng. (Come to think of it, so can three pointers) On the other hand DC-3's just naturally want to wheel on and it's so easy to do.

Our 170's are just about neutral in that respect. and it's easy to screw up with either because the gear is- let's face it- bouncy.
Rudy

[GAHorn]

Not intending to sound critical, but.... If your gear seems "bouncy".... It's because you hit the ground with too much downward velocity. It's just that simple.
Many "bounced" wheel landings are made simply because the pilot got impatient while arriving too fast and decided to "plant" it on. That almost always results in a botched and bounced landing.
Sometimes a pilot will try to "time" the touchdown with the downward plunge to a runway...again...with a real nice bounce. This usually also ends up in a porpoising hit, bounce, hit, bounce,...each one becoming successively wilder. (If you get into that situation...do NOT try to save the landing. Just shove power in and go around.)
Arriving over the runway, allow the airplane to slow to a slightly tail-low attitude and think about "rolling" or "flying" the aircraft wheels onto the ground rather than planting them on. As the wheels roll on, simply relax the back pressure to reduce angle of attack and no bounce will occur. Excess speed and impatience is invariably the cause of the bounce.
A good technique to develop the skill is to fly an approach, then just before touchdown, simply add power and fly the entire length of the runway in slow flight with wheels just above the ground. At the opposite end add power and go around for another practice run. When you've become confident of your ability to control the aircraft speed and altitude a few inches above the runway....then you're ready to pull the power, let it roll onto the ground, and release the backpressure/add forward pressure (in that order.) Hope that helps.

[rudymantel]

Maybe I should have said "springy". My wheel landings rarely bounce- they are tail-low and very much like three pointers, except that the tail wheel doesn't touch the runway until later. I don't "drive"it on. And as Dave said, the approach and touch-down speeds are low-. The gear however, is springier/bouncier than on many other airplanes. Typical Cessna / Steve Wittman gear.
Rudy

[Stinson driver]

I find that a botched wheelie can usually be made into a respectable
three pointer

.

Why ?

I do the same thing with my 170- If a wheeler goes wrong the only way I can fix it is to turn it into a 3 pointer -In my Stinson 108 if I bounce a wheeler I can just hold it after the bounce for another wheeler- if I try it in my 170 the bounces just get worse and worse

[zero.one.victor]

I've had people compliment me in all sincerity on a wheel landing after I thought I bounced it-- I've come to the conclusion that sometimes what feels like a bounce is really just the spring gear compressing & then rebounding, the wheels never actually come off the ground. This will happen using the MAF "don't flare" method, but not usually when with the tail-low "flare & feel for the runway with the tailwheel" method which I used to use.
Stinson driver, what I've found is that a bounced wheel landing can be salvaged by deliberately "sticking it on" with forward yoke pressure just as the mains are about to touch down again after a bounce. Very hard to do until you get used to it, the natural (intuitive) inclination is to flare to avoid a too-solid impact. If you are pulling and the mains hit at all before the tail, it will bounce/fly off again as the angle of attack increases. This can escalate into porposing which will get worse & worse, until you do something to correct the situation-- usually cob it & go around, because by now a lot of runway has generally gone by.
My two cents worth.

Eric

[Romeo Tango]

Power is the magic element of a lot of good landings. It's ideal to be able to land from idle (and we teach students to get very comfortable with that from pattern altitude) - but modulating the throttle as much as you need often makes things work out quite nicely. I find that some students get frozen into place, holding the settings (rudder, aileron, throttle) to see how it will all works out. Everything should be moving pretty much all the time to keep it where you want it.

I flew to Oroville (CA) yesterday, and got into some very strong fall winds (ASOS said 12G18, but it was well over 20, creeping up on 25). They have a wind-aligned runway, so it was all headwind. I was adding power to make sure I'd get to the threshold before I had to go to work on Monday :-! and I swear that I could have stopped in 150' or so. The wheelie let me taxi briskly the remaining 3200' of runway to the fuel pumps.

And that wind answered one of my niggling questions about the plane. Whenever I taxi I get this nasty whistling/screeching noise that I was sure was a dragging brake. No evidence of that presented itself. Then, aligned into the wind at the gas pumps, the source was revealed as the venturi. Seems amazingly obvious now, but it had me stumped for the longest time.

[AR Dave]

Yep Eric that's what I tend to do. Once at 4 corners (Wicks airstrip in AK), I half hazardly cut the pattern short and dropped in steep over the Cotton Woods. Guess I was doing a 3 point, but anyway somehow I did a non-chalant purpoise, then another, and another. I began to pay attention at this point because, I was either going to stop or fly under the power line and over the road. The next time I touched, I'd had enough - pushed that yoke forward, glued the tires, stood on them brakes, and made the gravel fly. I think wheel landings should be taught first thing!

[simatos]

You guys thanks again I read all your comments with great interest. I will let you know how I do if I ever get this cotton-pickin' thing off the ground G

[dlinsley]

I used to work for Mel Wick, that is an interesting strip, especially with a little wind. Sure looks different now with all the trees gone!!

[AR Dave]

HOLY TOLEDO! dlinsey, I went to my first real fly-in this weekend at Reklaw. This is a 2 million foot long grass strip nicer than Palmer Golf Course #3 Fairway, and wider than a football field is long. You wouldn't believe how fast the pilots were touching down at. Then they'd let the tail down and float up again and again and again. DUH! Randal, was laughing at my amazement the whole weekend. Damn Scary!
For goodness sakes, wheels or 3 points, the plane should be done flying when you touch down.
PS - I have a newly installed landing horn on my plane now. Everybody should have one of these.