Original Equipment List

[Sandy170]

My hubby is ready to take his PPL checkride. However, the examiner had all sorts of questions about my 170B and its logbooks.

He asked for flight manual revisions and updated flight limitations. I have that info from Cessna. I even got on their email list for updates.

But one of the documents he wanted was an original equipment list. OMG. So much has been switched out and upgraded over the years. We have all the 337 documentation and weight/balance calculations. Did these airplanes even come with an original equipment list? If so, it is not in my documentation. Do I need to compile one from a parts book? Is this something Cessna could dig out of their archives? Or do we need to remind the examiner that this is an antique and he should rely on the latest official weight/balance document? Help!

[bagarre]

I'd find another examiner or just rent a 172 for a few hours to avoid the BS.

email me and I'll email you the equipment list I've compiled for N2481D.
PS my email address is my tail number @gmail.com

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Yes they came with an equipment list. No you can't make one because you have no idea without the list, how it came from the factory. I'd be surprised if Cessna could come up with a copy of your aircraft equipment list from new,

If your airplane has been weighed since leaving the factory, the original equipment list is irrelevant. What would be relevant is an accurate equipment list from the last weighing and any additions since then. If you have that that is all you need.

If your aircraft has never been weighed only then would the original equipment list come into play because it would be the start of the current w&b for the aircraft.

So I'm curious, what flight manual revision you got compared to what you had and what updated flight limitations. I'm also curious how the examiner would know that Cessna hadn't updated the copies you present since you got them.

I don't know if this guy is being a jerk or maybe he is gently guiding you to get the data you always should have had.

Has your 170 been weighed since new and does that W&B record contain a complete equipment list? Did you already have the current AFM with limitations?

[mit]

I'd find another examiner or just rent a 172 for a few hours to avoid the BS.

email me and I'll email you the equipment list I've compiled for N2481D.
PS my email address is my tail number @gmail.com

I think we found a winner!
2nd the motion!

[johneeb]

All this time I have been calling them "Wheel Pants" when I should have been say "Wheel Streamliners" .

[blueldr]

I believe that I'd invite this examiner to bite my ------- (I kinda forget what it's called.

[Sandy170]

As always, this forum has been a great help!

Bruce, I have a login to Cessna's Service 'forum' and was able to see a list of the revision dates of operating manual and flight limitations for my aircraft type, and to also download a copy for my personal POH binder (didn't have latest version, so this was a good step). As for the original equipment list, Cessna publications department can pull it from microfiche for $85. Yes, Eighty Five Dollars. My aircraft was weighed after its last paint job and adjusted for a couple equipment changes since then. If the company who did the weighing did not list the installed equipment, then I probably will need to get a copy of the original equipment list (proof of starting point) and make my own "current version" list. That's something I really should maintain anyway as an owner.

Thank you to Aryana who provided a sample version.

What? No comment from George?

[T. C. Downey]

Read note 1 in the TCDS, it says the up to date equipment list is all that is required, accompanied with a accurate W&B

I'd call my A&P's Primary maintenance inspector at FSDO and ask where you can get this Original equipment list, when they ask you why you would need that, tell them the episode with the examiner, they will have a slap down with in the FSDO, that inspector will be realigned with the proper procedures.

Then you will get the check ride of your life.

[voorheesh]

You do not need an original equipment list. You need a current equipment list reflecting what is installed on the aircraft along with a current weight and balance. For these older aircraft, an actual reweigh is recommended. The source of this as pointed out above is Note 1 in the TCDS which stipulates the requirement at the time of certification and "at all times thereafter". This should be checked by an IA at the time of an annual inspection and all of our aircraft should have the list. An A&P can put a list together following an inspection of the aircraft and its maintenance records. You can also do it yourself if you know what you are looking for, but get it checked.

Certification of a new pilot is serious business and knowledge of airworthiness is an important part of the process. This examiner is doing you and your husband a favor and you are doing the rest of us a favor by reminding us and asking good questions. I am sorry to say it but the reference to BS and making a joke out of this stuff comes across as counterproductive.

[mit]

Whats counter productive is the FAA putting out Designated examiners that are incompentent or crooks and then making their paid customers pay the bill for their lack of oversight. It has been happening far too often lately!

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Harlow as noted I took the high road hoping this examiner was doing them a favor after reviewing their records and noting missing or incomplete records. Unfortunately, to often I think, examiners don't know all they should or think they know more than they do and as the examiner they hold the trump card. And that stinks like BS.

As an insider you have the contacts and likely get the help without the BS an outsider can run up against. When you call a FSDO and get the run around because you simply want to stop by and pick up the official FAA Sales Receipt located inside the first of several locked door it really sours you to contact with any one connected including designated examiners. Truth be told I've had more favorable encounters than bad but the bad just makes one gun shy.

Sandy, look at the last W&B record. Does it have a complete and accurate equipment list? If so your finished. If it references past equipment lists, specifically going back to the original, then you need that original to make the record complete. You could buy the original to fix the problem or you could have your aircraft reweighed and a complete list created.

Did this examiner actually look at your aircraft records before demanding an original equipment list?

[voorheesh]

I am not surprised to hear that business with examiners and the FAA is not always satisfactory. I am sure you would all agree that the same could also be said for aviation people outside of the FAA. Everywhere you go in life there are going to be people who have to make it difficult. So lets get back to equipment lists.

If I was going to be an examiner (I'm not) and go flying in a 60 plus year old (or any) airplane I have never seen before, I don't think its unreasonable for me to make sure it meets basic safety requirements. One of those is weight and balance and to ensure that the airplane is going to be loaded properly. Aviation has a "system" to account for that. When that airplane receives its AW Certificate it has a known empty weight and configuration which is memorialized in a W&B report and an equipment list. Thereafter, if it is modified, the technician responsible has to update the W&B and equipment list, thus providing us with a reliable source of this important information. This is a basic safety control. If you don't adhere to it, you don't really know. Do you? Mechanics are trained on this and usually understand it. For some reason, many pilots don't seem to have as good an understanding of the system and express shock when someone questions them. You hear things like: "It flies fine!" "I know how much it can take" "This is BS!" Don't tell me what safety is!" "I'm safe, damn it!"

Does this attitude speak well for general aviation? Is this going to attract new pilots and airplane owners? Our part of the GA world is shrinking and organizations like AOPA and EAA are doing everything they can to turn that around and attract new blood. Everything I hear encourages us to "Do it Right". Have a good attitude we are told. This thread started with an aircraft owner asking a legitimate question. It involves a brand new pilot taking that first test. The examiner may be crook or a role model. How do we know? What is the message we want to send? I am fortunate enough to have some skill and knowledge which I prefer to try and use to help GA if I can. The underlying issue here is to know how much your airplane weighs and then to make sure you load it properly and avoid an accident. Sorry folks, but I'm here to tell you that all too often we see the results of well intentioned pilots who never learned that lesson. This is an opportunity to set an example. Lets not waste it.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Harlow your last post is dead on.

Except maybe that mechanics understand W&B more often than pilots . Unfortunately I'm finding that is not the case. Just recently I argued with a maintenance supervisor that a recent W&B done on an aircraft in our fleet had inconsistent and a incomplete equipment list and thus the W&B record was garbage. His first stance was no pilot knew more than the maintenance staff at the repair station that weighed the aircraft. I proved using his understanding how to read the equipment, list that if it was correct, major components such as the air conditioning system where not installed at the weighing, an impossibility. He quietly ordered a new weighing with different maintenance crew.

Yes I also find lots and lots of pilots have no idea what their aircraft weighs or the CG. In fact nearly every first flight review I give starts with asking if the aircraft is legal, what that means, and conversation eventually gets to W&B. I ask if we can legally fly their aircraft with the current fuel load and most of the answers are in line with I do it all the time and it handles just fine. Fact is most of these pilots and me sitting in the front of their Cherokee with full fuel are forward of the CG limit. The next question usually is what weather do we need to depart this airport and I usually get . Then they say it doesn't matter because they only fly when it is really nice.

As for my own 170, it has never seen a set of scales, the weight and CG being calculated from example at the factory. The W&B records where a mess. I spent a few fun hours starting from the factory record looking at each and every maintenance event from '49 to present finding and recording changes to the W&B. This became the aircrafts list of Historical W&B Changes. As I found each change the equipment list was updated. When I was done I had a more accurate W&B, or as accurate as a calculated 65 year old W&B could be, an accurate W&B history and a current and accurate equipment list,. But more important, it was legal.

[voorheesh]

Bruce/Arash,

You give us excellent examples of how to approach this subject and this proves the value of aircraft type clubs.

Regarding the challenges that exist between pilots and AMTs, the industry (including general aviation) has been dealing with it for years and we are improving. When I started, there was virtually no communication between flight ops and maintenance at our small airline and the two organizations were constantly at odds with each other. Naturally, the employees mirror these negative traits to the detriment of safety and success. Fortunately, the organization and the people I worked with took this bull by the horns and I saw vast improvements during my career. I think the awakening concerns the fact that human error is inevitable in all of our undertakings and once we recognize that, we can shift our attention from negative labels ("idiots" "fools", etc) to a commitment to prevent human error that involves both individual and organizational performance.

When a pilot makes a serious error, the results are usually immediate. Maintenance personnel, on the other hand frequently commit errors that do not become apparent until later and are harder to trace and understand. We now train AMTs to recognize this and incorporate preventive measures that reduce the chance for mistakes. Lists such as the "Dirty Dozen" and the "Magnificent Seven" are kind of labels for an approach that is succeeding and improving performance in maintaining aircraft from Cessna 170s to B-787s. I can hear many yawning, but I bring this up so we pilots are aware that this is not something taken for granted and swept under a rug. Communications between pilots and AMTs are important whether it be GA or air carrier. Most of us enjoy flying but we have to keep our eye on the serious nature of it. Our attitudes and words count.

The AMT's Magnificent Seven:

We work to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative
Safety is not a game because the price of losing is too high
Just for today - Zero Error
We all do our part to prevent Murphy from hitting the Jackpot
Our signature is our word and more precious than gold
We are all part of the team
We always work with a safety net

Think about it and fly safe!

[T. C. Downey]

As for my own 170, it has never seen a set of scales, the weight and CG being calculated from example at the factory. The W&B records where a mess. I spent a few fun hours starting from the factory record looking at each and every maintenance event from '49 to present finding and recording changes to the W&B. This became the aircrafts list of Historical W&B Changes. As I found each change the equipment list was updated. When I was done I had a more accurate W&B, or as accurate as a calculated 65 year old W&B could be, an accurate W&B history and a current and accurate equipment list,. But more important, it was legal.

I have a 20 dollar bill that says when you place that 170 on a set of certified scales, weight it properly, you will not get the number you are now operating with.

Many pilots do not understand the equipment changes are not the only reason the Empty weight varies.