Spin Training — Seeking Advice

[canav8]

Folks there is nothing wrong with doing a spin in the 170. The big question which is of all concern to any engineer. Can it be done correctly? The truth is, that if the original poster is seeking spin training for his CFI. In that training, the CFI, teaching the OP, must also explain how an improper recovery can result and effects. Although it can be taught arm chair quarterback style, experience is the best teacher. That makes the 170 unacceptable to do spin training in period. Let me also add this. I have 2 same exact model gliders currently sitting as lawn orniments because EASA in Europe issued a manditory grounding because a flight instructor was doin aerobatic training in the LET L-13 Blanik. The student/instructor scenario ripped the wings off on a flight in Austria. They both did not survive. THe FAA sympathy agreed to ground the Blaniks in the US for the same reason. Noone can enjoy these gliders anymore. DO you want the 170 to fall into this also? Please be smart about flying your airplanes. they are over 60 years old. Save maneuvers like this for the aircraft designed to do this.

[bsdunek]

The 170 is approved for spins in the utility category but not the Normal category.

From the flight manual

1. The following maneuvers are approved for operation in the Utility Category only, with recommended
entry speeds shown:
Chandelle - 115 MPH. Steep Turn - 115 MPH. Lazy Eight - 115 MPH. All Stalls
(except Whip Stalls) - Slow Deceleration. Spins - Slow Deceleration

Yes, that's what the book says. I've tried spins in mine a couple of times - very mild. Lots of rudder authority - it recovers quite easily. I remember my Dad spinning it when I was a kid. That was somewhere between 1950 and 1955, as I was still in school. Haven't lost any parts yet.

[SteveF]

Having spun a number of other aircraft over the years I thought the 170 would just be another.
As mentioned it is dossal and somewhat difficult to get into the spin.

The big surprise to me in my 1952B was the cowling. it slopes down from the windshield to the spinner
at a fairly good angle. As the spin develops it begins to appear that the nose is vertical or even tucking under.
Got out of the first one in a hurry but after a couple more you realize it is just an illusion.

Enjoy that plane !!!!!

[nippaero]

Ryan,
My grandpa used to spin 80A once in a while. Usually just a turn or less. He always said they were gental and no big deal. He would also did chandelles and lazy eights. He had a funny story about having to get a BFR from a young CFI (whipper snapper). He asked the CFI if he could do a spin with him and he reluctantly said OK. He said the guy turned white as a ghost and they had to go land. I wish I had the chance to do some spins with him before he passed away.

I have an instructor at my airport who teaches spins in a Taylorcraft. Its on my list to go up with him someday for some training. Congrats on the new job! Anytime you can fly and put money in your pocket is a good day!

[170C]

I feel sure there are any number of planes that are more suited for spin training than 170/172/175/180 etc. As was just stated, it likely depends upon ones goal. If memory serves me, I was told a spin is one of the easiest aerobatic maneuvers on a plane. A loop probably is equally easy on them. Proper recovery technique is the secret and that is likely where a mistake could be much more of an issue with 50-60 yr old planes than with newer ones.

[flyboy122]

My best spin training was when I was practicing hammerheads and I managed to inadvertently get into an inverted spin at the top of the hammer. I recovered without even thinking about it because of all the instruction I had in that same plane doing every crazy thing you could think of.
.

Aryana,

Had a similar incident when I let another pilot "try a loop" in an old biplane my dad owns. His headset came off and he panicked and let go of the stick to grab it. The plane stalled on a 45deg upline and began to fall into a spin. What surprised me was how fast my training kicked in. The spin barely developed because I felt it start and immediately began a recovery. I learned 2 really important lessons that day:

1. I don't have the nerve to be an instructor.
2. The beauty of spin training isn't just that it teaches how to recover from a spin, it also teaches you how not to get in one in the first place! With good spin training you can recognize the onset of spin conditions and are (hopefully) less likely put yourself in those conditions.

Cannot recommend spin training enough. Ryan, I know you are in a hurry, but this isn't a "check the box" thing. If you can't do it now, do it as soon as you can.

DEM

[GAHorn]

I am not a new CFI,...I did spins for my certification, and taught them to a dozen or more CFI-applicants over the years in all sorts of civilian airplanes like C-150/172, Citabrias, Aeroncas, Stinsons, and scared myself silly in a Traumahawk (never again!) and I've received aerobatic training from one of the best, Gene Soucy, in his CAP-10B and in a T-6. (whew!)

My airplane went thru an extensive restoration over a period of 17 years and had virtually every piece of hardware, all cables, most skins, all flight control surfaces ...the list goes on and on and on.... replaced, rebuilt, repaired by a group of professionals at Textron (who owns Cessna). The airplane won the "Restoration" trophy at Oshkosh in '97. It was like a freshly-manufactured Cessna 170B when I bought it just after that.

Shortly after the acquisition a friend who owns a Bonanza asked if I'd teach him spins in my 170 and I told him "No." (because I didn't want to use my personal pride-and-joy as a trainer) and suggested we rent something more appropriate. The first annual inspection of the 170 afterwards revealed that the elevator travel-limits were improperly adjusted due to obstructions behind the instrument panel....and this was a VERY ORIGINAL AIRPLANE put together by true craftsmen/professionals! Who knows what it's spin entry/recovery characteristics might have been before we caught/corrected that error.

The point is that no matter how much you love your airplane and believe it to be in wonderful condition.... unless you can confirm the airplane meets it original design, fit, and functionality.... you don't know what it might do in an unusual flight maneuver, or how it might/might-not recover.

The spin training you receive in another model aircraft may not be applicable to the airplane you fly regularly. They may have very different characteristics and recovery-techinques (as demonstrated by Aryana's experience in the Yak.)

Removing the gyros from your airplane may involve certification issues. Will it be legal to fly after you temporarily remove them? How will you record that work? How will you reweigh or compute your new W/B? Not to mention the fact that removal/reinstallation exposes them to hazards every bit as harmful as a spin or two.

The good ol' 170 is.... well, it's OLD! Regardless of your immaculate maintenance/inspections it is still a 60+ year old airplane and is more like a flying-museum than an aerobatic-trainer. And bringing along the little lady who's unfamiliar with the specific model might meet the letter of the regulatory-requirement but will provide little-to-nothing in the way of training for YOU. (YOU will be providing a training experience for HER.)

I'm sure there are those reading this thinking "Ol' George has lost his enthusiasm and sensibilities".... but it's not that I'm afraid of spins...or even afraid of spins in a 170. If I happen to somehow find myself in a spinning 170 I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of it, even if it's as simple as pulling off the power and "letting go" of the controls to allow the airplane to return to stabilized flight all on it's own. (No. That's not the best technique, although it works if you have sufficient altitude and are within W/B limits and the airplane is properly rigged. The recommended technique is with power-off, apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation then immediately neutralize rudder, followed by forward elevator to unstall the wing to regain flying-speed, then smoothly pull out of the ensuing descent back to level flight.)

That's in a 170, not necessarily other aircraft. And that's why you want to find an instructor experienced in aerobatics....not just someone who has had a few flights in unusual attitudes... but someone who has regularly taught in aerobatic aircraft. The local instructor who did spins for his CFI a few years ago and then excitedly showed a few pilot buddies his new-learned "skill" is not who you want. That is, if you want to really learn something.

And you want to do this in a professional environment, using professional equipment designed for the purpose. Not in some 60-year old airplane designed for level-flight that is so safe...that even the unaccomplished owner is unlikely to get killed in a spin because the airplane met a certification requirement that it doesn't spin easily and recovers on it's own!

Best intentions in posting this.