Good day! Thank you for adding me to the Forum. I am here to learn all I can about making my first airplane purchase, and obviously, that plane is going to be a C-170. I am a professional EMS Helicopter pilot flying in Northwest Arkansas. For those of you who have not flown in this region, you are missing out. The scenery at 1000’ AGL is spectacular as the foliage changes over the next month or so. I’m so fortunate to get to see it from the helicopter every day. I’m also an avid motorcyclist, so I get to enjoy the scenery from all angles. I regret that I have not been able to take my wife up to see all of this from my usual perspective. I did the math and for me to get checked out and rent a plane for a couple hours, I could make three payments on my own plane!
I’m a commercial pilot in helicopters and airplanes, ASEL and AMEL and CFII in both as well. The Tailwheel endorsement has evaded me so far, but I did once impress a CFI in a J-3 Super cub with my ability to “use my feet”. It just sort of comes naturally to a helicopter guy. I’m excited about the prospect of owning a plane that I can load up with camping gear, swoop into a mountain-top State park strip for a couple days of fly fishing, then file from my iPad and get an IFR clearance into civilization under less than VFR, and do it all for less direct operating cost than my 2015 Harley! I am a long-time AOPA member and my journey into airplane ownership would be ill-fated without going through them first. I am interested in other financing and insurance options though. I look forward to picking up all of the information I can that pertains to my particular goals of airplane ownership, and maintaining an elegant piece of GA history. Thanks again!
Another new guy!
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10318
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Re: Another new guy!
Darn another helicopter guy. The more of them we get on here the harder it is for me to impress everyone with my skills. 
I'm also a helicopter pilot currently working EMS in PA for Metro Aviation on the PennStar contract flying a EC145. We actually have a few rotor heads in the organization and the others perk up every now and then.
You will love the 170 and being able to share the experiences you see every day. Your justification is the exact same as I used to buy my first plane 30 years ago.
As a RW pilot you know how to use your feet and you understand such terms as torque and gyroscopic precession. You have a leg up on others when it comes to the tail wheel transition. Hell I could probably send you a sticker with a log entry based on your J-3 Super Cub story. But first you got to get your nomenclature right when your talking airplanes. There is no such thing as a J-3 Super Cub. There is a J-3 and there is a PA 18 Super Cub, and besides being both Piper and a tail wheel airplane, not much else the same.
You will probably be modifying your statement 'then file from my iPad and get an IFR clearance into civilization under less than VFR, and do it all for less direct operating cost than my 2015 Harley!" in two ways. First most 170s are not equipped to make IFR comfortable for most. Not that you can't fly IFR or you can't equip a 170 to make it comfortable, just that most aren't and most pilots don't plan on IFR. Second your 2015 Harley is going to be much cheaper to operate.
Your starting off right. Read and learn. Ask questions. Use your resources such as the AOPA as I did when I started out. But be forewarned, the AOPA is much better geared with good answers for newer milk stool geared aircraft. A 60 year old airframe like the 170 is not their specialty. For example when shopping for insurance for a 170 you are likely to do better outside AOPA.
Good luck and have fun with your journey.
I'm also a helicopter pilot currently working EMS in PA for Metro Aviation on the PennStar contract flying a EC145. We actually have a few rotor heads in the organization and the others perk up every now and then.
You will love the 170 and being able to share the experiences you see every day. Your justification is the exact same as I used to buy my first plane 30 years ago.
As a RW pilot you know how to use your feet and you understand such terms as torque and gyroscopic precession. You have a leg up on others when it comes to the tail wheel transition. Hell I could probably send you a sticker with a log entry based on your J-3 Super Cub story. But first you got to get your nomenclature right when your talking airplanes. There is no such thing as a J-3 Super Cub. There is a J-3 and there is a PA 18 Super Cub, and besides being both Piper and a tail wheel airplane, not much else the same.
You will probably be modifying your statement 'then file from my iPad and get an IFR clearance into civilization under less than VFR, and do it all for less direct operating cost than my 2015 Harley!" in two ways. First most 170s are not equipped to make IFR comfortable for most. Not that you can't fly IFR or you can't equip a 170 to make it comfortable, just that most aren't and most pilots don't plan on IFR. Second your 2015 Harley is going to be much cheaper to operate.
Your starting off right. Read and learn. Ask questions. Use your resources such as the AOPA as I did when I started out. But be forewarned, the AOPA is much better geared with good answers for newer milk stool geared aircraft. A 60 year old airframe like the 170 is not their specialty. For example when shopping for insurance for a 170 you are likely to do better outside AOPA.
Good luck and have fun with your journey.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4062
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
Re: Another new guy!
Welcome to the Cessna 170 forums Neil! I saw your post on Facebook, and I'm glad to see you found your way over here. From your lack of an avatar I see you have yet to join The International Cessna 170 Association. There's a LOT of information here on the forums available only to paid members of the Association. It's only $35/year or $130/3 years, and I'm sure you'll find it worth the price of admission.
I drove through northwest Arkansas last Monday afternoon on a trip from southwest Arkansas to southern Missouri and I will agree it quite a beautiful place. I only wish it had been a week or two later for the colors, and could have been in an airplane so as to get the full effect from the air!
I drove through northwest Arkansas last Monday afternoon on a trip from southwest Arkansas to southern Missouri and I will agree it quite a beautiful place. I only wish it had been a week or two later for the colors, and could have been in an airplane so as to get the full effect from the air!
Miles
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
“I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less.”
— Thomas Browne
Re: Another new guy!
Thanks, Bruce. Right you are! It was a PA-18 in Bainbridge, GA. I had a short introductory flight at an Ag school to see if that type of work suited me. Had it not been for the $18,000 tuition, it might have!
As far as IFR in a 170, I agree it may not be all that "comfortable" for most. I flew Aero Commanders IFR for a cargo operator for a spell and I had a blast! No auto pilot, steam gauges, just old flying trucks and I flew mostly in the dark and in the clag. My Airplane IFR checkride ended with a VOR approach to MDA and a missed approach at my home field in Ozark, AL. I requested vectors to the ILS rw 32 at KDHN, which was the DPE's home field. We walked into his office, debriefed and he signed my certificate, then told me to file and go home as soon as the ceiling came up some! To me, successfully enjoying IFR is more about being comfortable in the aircraft I am flying. The rules and procedures don't change much. Cross-check and scan is most important, and that has to developed and adapted to any cockpit arrangement. I wouldn't push my limits in a 170, nor would I plan a complex, multi-leg cross country under IFR. But I will spend a bit more to make sure my aircraft is certified and solid for IFR.
I was kinda joking about the comparative operating cost comparison between my bike and a plane! But, I'm the only one who knows how much I spend on my bike! If my wife really knew, well... The point is, the airplane won't cost nearly as much as rental aircraft! I already know my monthly payment is more on the bike than the plane will be, including a hangar!
I'm not taking the matter lightly. There is much to learn and things to be financially prepared for ahead of time. I think I have a preliminary financial plan that will work, including a down payment, annual insurance premium, 6 months hangar rental and an annual inspection. My plan is to maintain a minimum balance in that account and "pay" myself hourly rent into it. I don't know if other owners do it quite that way, but I figured that's how 135 operators and clubs do it, so it should work on an individual level too. We'all see!
As far as IFR in a 170, I agree it may not be all that "comfortable" for most. I flew Aero Commanders IFR for a cargo operator for a spell and I had a blast! No auto pilot, steam gauges, just old flying trucks and I flew mostly in the dark and in the clag. My Airplane IFR checkride ended with a VOR approach to MDA and a missed approach at my home field in Ozark, AL. I requested vectors to the ILS rw 32 at KDHN, which was the DPE's home field. We walked into his office, debriefed and he signed my certificate, then told me to file and go home as soon as the ceiling came up some! To me, successfully enjoying IFR is more about being comfortable in the aircraft I am flying. The rules and procedures don't change much. Cross-check and scan is most important, and that has to developed and adapted to any cockpit arrangement. I wouldn't push my limits in a 170, nor would I plan a complex, multi-leg cross country under IFR. But I will spend a bit more to make sure my aircraft is certified and solid for IFR.
I was kinda joking about the comparative operating cost comparison between my bike and a plane! But, I'm the only one who knows how much I spend on my bike! If my wife really knew, well... The point is, the airplane won't cost nearly as much as rental aircraft! I already know my monthly payment is more on the bike than the plane will be, including a hangar!
I'm not taking the matter lightly. There is much to learn and things to be financially prepared for ahead of time. I think I have a preliminary financial plan that will work, including a down payment, annual insurance premium, 6 months hangar rental and an annual inspection. My plan is to maintain a minimum balance in that account and "pay" myself hourly rent into it. I don't know if other owners do it quite that way, but I figured that's how 135 operators and clubs do it, so it should work on an individual level too. We'all see!
Re: Another new guy!
Firstly, let me state for the record that I'm a huge advocate of owning your own aircraft. I think everyone should own an aircraft. I sell new aircraft for a living, and I practice what I preach. There are a lot of reasons to own your own airplane. So all that being said....saving money is not one of them.
When I add up hanger, insurance, maintenance, fuel, reserve for o/h, etc... I come up between 70 and 110 bucks per hour, depending on how many hours I fly a year. If it's only 50, it's towards the high side. If I can get a hundred in, I'm towards that lower end. We all think we are going to fly more, but the reality is that for non-commercial flying it's really hard to fly more than 100 hours a year. Most people don't. To put those numbers in context I'm an A&P so I can do much of my own mx, and my hanger is $130/month. Now, in my neck of the woods I can rent a 172 for around $110/hour wet. No muss, no fuss. Honestly, from a financial standpoint it's really hard to justify.
So, why am I a 170 owner? Well, let me count the ways:
1. I like taildraggers and nobody rents them anymore.
2. Mine has the big engine/prop upgrade, which gives a lot more performance than a 172 or Cherokee. Performance = fun!
3. I want to go when I want to go, where I want to go. I don't have to want to ask, fly minimum hours, wait for a plane to return, return it on a schedule, etc...
4. I want to be able to modify and do what I want with it.
5. I like being in control of the mx and condition of what I'm flying.
6. I fly more. Having to pry a hundy out of my wallet everytime I fly takes the fun out of it. With my plane most of the cost is sunk, so every hour after that check is written is free!
7. I just like owning an airplane.
My advice to you...buy a plane! But first I would rent one for a year or two. Do the camping trip, do the leaves, give friends/family rides, etc.... See what you like, and what you don't like. See what your patterns are, how much you actually fly. Does your wife really like it, or does she actually get sick, or not care, or keeps coming up with reasons to beg off? How much IFR do you actually fly? After a year or two look at how you actually used the plane, and then decide what to buy.
The 170 is great. It's the perfect plane for me. It may be for you. But don't do it to save money. That's not a reason. Take the time to build the other reasons.
DEM
When I add up hanger, insurance, maintenance, fuel, reserve for o/h, etc... I come up between 70 and 110 bucks per hour, depending on how many hours I fly a year. If it's only 50, it's towards the high side. If I can get a hundred in, I'm towards that lower end. We all think we are going to fly more, but the reality is that for non-commercial flying it's really hard to fly more than 100 hours a year. Most people don't. To put those numbers in context I'm an A&P so I can do much of my own mx, and my hanger is $130/month. Now, in my neck of the woods I can rent a 172 for around $110/hour wet. No muss, no fuss. Honestly, from a financial standpoint it's really hard to justify.
So, why am I a 170 owner? Well, let me count the ways:
1. I like taildraggers and nobody rents them anymore.
2. Mine has the big engine/prop upgrade, which gives a lot more performance than a 172 or Cherokee. Performance = fun!
3. I want to go when I want to go, where I want to go. I don't have to want to ask, fly minimum hours, wait for a plane to return, return it on a schedule, etc...
4. I want to be able to modify and do what I want with it.
5. I like being in control of the mx and condition of what I'm flying.
6. I fly more. Having to pry a hundy out of my wallet everytime I fly takes the fun out of it. With my plane most of the cost is sunk, so every hour after that check is written is free!
7. I just like owning an airplane.
My advice to you...buy a plane! But first I would rent one for a year or two. Do the camping trip, do the leaves, give friends/family rides, etc.... See what you like, and what you don't like. See what your patterns are, how much you actually fly. Does your wife really like it, or does she actually get sick, or not care, or keeps coming up with reasons to beg off? How much IFR do you actually fly? After a year or two look at how you actually used the plane, and then decide what to buy.
The 170 is great. It's the perfect plane for me. It may be for you. But don't do it to save money. That's not a reason. Take the time to build the other reasons.
DEM
Re: Another new guy!
Wow! Thanks for putting it all in a nutshell!
You're totally right. It's not about "saving money". It's about MY money. I make the money and it should be up to me how I spend it. Now, the reality in this particular market is I can rent, but there are some particular hoops to jump through. I am surrounded by more airports than I can shake a stick at and I know the tower controllers by their voices. But FBO's are not that common and airplane rentals are reserved for the part 141 schools. I could travel by ground to rent an airplane, but to fly the area outside my front door means renting a plane an hour flight time away after a two hour bike ride. Dumb. I don't want to play "their" games. I want to play by MY rules. Ultimately, yes, owning and operating a 170 here, really does cost less than renting. More and more markets are falling victim to this trend.
I honestly appreciate your insight as a salesman. It should stand to reason that you understand this process more than most, but stuff happens outside of your field of view and it's kinda sick. I wish it was different.
My wife is a flyer. We've been through some rough skies in a helicopter before. My folks are a tremendous source of encouragement for her. I'm pretty sure she's up to this. We had a couple of offshore boats together when we were dating. We've been full circle with boats and motorcycles, so this is a pretty logical stage of the sequence, especially for a 3rd generation, professional pilot.
I wish renting in this market was more feasible, but it isn't. I'd rather own an airplane than wish I owned one. I got this!
You're totally right. It's not about "saving money". It's about MY money. I make the money and it should be up to me how I spend it. Now, the reality in this particular market is I can rent, but there are some particular hoops to jump through. I am surrounded by more airports than I can shake a stick at and I know the tower controllers by their voices. But FBO's are not that common and airplane rentals are reserved for the part 141 schools. I could travel by ground to rent an airplane, but to fly the area outside my front door means renting a plane an hour flight time away after a two hour bike ride. Dumb. I don't want to play "their" games. I want to play by MY rules. Ultimately, yes, owning and operating a 170 here, really does cost less than renting. More and more markets are falling victim to this trend.
I honestly appreciate your insight as a salesman. It should stand to reason that you understand this process more than most, but stuff happens outside of your field of view and it's kinda sick. I wish it was different.
My wife is a flyer. We've been through some rough skies in a helicopter before. My folks are a tremendous source of encouragement for her. I'm pretty sure she's up to this. We had a couple of offshore boats together when we were dating. We've been full circle with boats and motorcycles, so this is a pretty logical stage of the sequence, especially for a 3rd generation, professional pilot.
I wish renting in this market was more feasible, but it isn't. I'd rather own an airplane than wish I owned one. I got this!
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Joe Moilanen
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:45 am
Re: Another new guy!
Welcome aboard!! My 2001 Road King still comes in cheaper than the 170 though...
Joe
Joe
Re: Another new guy!
Sounds like you've thought it through. Just have to ask. If you don't buy a plane for the right reasons, it won't be a good experience and it won't be around for long. The 170 provides tremendous bang for the buck. Good luck!
DEM
DEM
Re: Another new guy!
I appreciate the welcomes and sound advice! I am happy to report, (and a little embarrassed that it's taken me so long) that I have found a C-170 for RENT that is actively being used for TW instruction! I am waiting on a call from one of the instructors and I hope to be flying it very soon! As I plan my future financials and other details, I will be gaining some good experience in the 170 as well as renewing my CFI and hopefully be making a little seed-money for my airplane on the side! As I mentioned previously, I am surrounded by class D and one class C airport here in NW Arkansas. I completely overlooked the one little municipal airport tucked into the only remaining real estate! Maybe I should have started there!
Re: Another new guy!
We look forward to hearing the tales. And seeing the pictures, too!
Re: Another new guy!
And so it begins...
Had my first "official" tailwheel lesson in a 170B yesterday! I'm thrilled that the concepts coalesced as I had anticipated. Granted, the wind was 180/10 and we were on sod for most of the lesson. First full-stall landings were easy. A little side load on the very first one, but it's been almost 5 years since my last flight in an airplane. My first attempt at a wheel landing bounced, but not so badly that I wasn't able to pull off a three point out of it. We finished up at the home field with another set of landings on the hard surface, and this time I got it all worked out. I think having familiar visual references on the runway helped somehow. I've landed to grass many times before, but I tend to process new concepts mechanically and I like to organize several individual things in my head to reach a sum of all the parts. Yes, that's called "OVERTHINKING"! It will come easier with practice, as does everything else. My first attempt at hovering a helicopter wasn't pretty!
Anyway, so far, so good. Looks like I picked the right plane (for me) to be doing this training in, and it looks like it will be a good plane to purchase down the road.
Had my first "official" tailwheel lesson in a 170B yesterday! I'm thrilled that the concepts coalesced as I had anticipated. Granted, the wind was 180/10 and we were on sod for most of the lesson. First full-stall landings were easy. A little side load on the very first one, but it's been almost 5 years since my last flight in an airplane. My first attempt at a wheel landing bounced, but not so badly that I wasn't able to pull off a three point out of it. We finished up at the home field with another set of landings on the hard surface, and this time I got it all worked out. I think having familiar visual references on the runway helped somehow. I've landed to grass many times before, but I tend to process new concepts mechanically and I like to organize several individual things in my head to reach a sum of all the parts. Yes, that's called "OVERTHINKING"! It will come easier with practice, as does everything else. My first attempt at hovering a helicopter wasn't pretty!
Anyway, so far, so good. Looks like I picked the right plane (for me) to be doing this training in, and it looks like it will be a good plane to purchase down the road.
Re: Another new guy!
Welcome to come out of the DARK SIDE (fling-wing), Neil! 
You'll find yourself in good company here! (Lots of happy 170 owners.) It truly is a wonderful airplane for ownership. I say that because most of the rental-units I've seen have been sadly abused and often improperly maintained. One of the beauties of ownership is the ability to take care of it like ...well,...like you owned it!
I hope you find the one of your dreams, and this association is the place to start!
You'll find yourself in good company here! (Lots of happy 170 owners.) It truly is a wonderful airplane for ownership. I say that because most of the rental-units I've seen have been sadly abused and often improperly maintained. One of the beauties of ownership is the ability to take care of it like ...well,...like you owned it!
I hope you find the one of your dreams, and this association is the place to start!
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons.
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ghostflyer
- Posts: 1395
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:06 am
Re: Another new guy!
Welcome to the 170 world. You will find the 170 the most cost efficient and fun aircraft around . In my job I have access to to the lastest and the greatest aircraft and have a new new 182 sitting in my hangar . What do I fly most ? It's the 170 . Just replaced the lower nose gear bracket on the 182 due to it being broken ( $4500 , I WASNT flying it ) . Never have broken that bracket in a 170 . The nose wheel is down the back of the aircraft so landing on rough strips is more comfortable .