Yoke vs Stick

[TFA170]

I've recently been flying my new 170 - what a nice handling plane! I really am enjoying it, so don't take this next bit out of context!!

I remember what I dislike about yokes from the time I started my private flying in 150/152/172 and my time in Mooneys....the yoke. It is not a naturally coordinated motion to do a two-dimensional (climb & turn) maneuver when compared to the motion of a stick...at least where your shoulder/arm/wrist is concerned.

All of my (admittedly limited) taildragger time, until now, has been in stick-equipped aircraft. All of the training jets I flew in the Air Force were equipped with a stick. So, perhaps I'm biased. However, the overwhelming majority of my flying time overall is in C-130s of various flavors, and while it has a yoke, it is mounted on a 'stick' and so the angle of my wrist changes as I pull the yoke back, making turning the yoke a little more natural compared to a GA aircraft yoke which has a straight motion roughly parallel to the centerline axis of the plane vs the natural arc a C130 yoke makes.

This is not a condemnation of my 170, or any 170 for that matter, and I know I will get 'more' used to it as I fly it more, but it's really an awkward motion from a human mechanical perspective and I recall even as I learned to fly 150s many mango seasons ago, I found it an odd motion. But particularly taxiing, I find the aft and turn (for wind control, as applicable) to be particularly awkward.

The bottom line is a yoke makes it two motions instead of the one diagonal motion it should be.


So, here's the stupid question of the day - has anyone ever converted a 170 to a stick? If not, would L19/O1 Birddog drawings/components be a place to explore? I'm sure there's no STC out there because I'm certain I'm in the minority.

**donning flame retardant suit**

[hilltop170]

Wouldn't think of flaming you, it's an interesting idea I never thought of. Sounds like a TON of work to me but if you enjoy that sort of thing, go for it! I like flying them better than working on them but that's just me. Having never had the privilege of flying any cool military airplanes I didn't know what I was missing. And even the Cubs I trained in didn't cause me to think of a stick in the 170, I kinda looked at the stick as outdated. I have a different opinion of sticks now.

Most of us never give it a thought, that"s just the way it is. When I was a broke college student in 1973 and just barely scraped together enough to buy the 170, I thought it was perfect just the way it was, even though it had been crashed in 1952 and reassembled on the hangar floor without ANY apparent consideration to rigging. Having to hold left aileron and right rudder CONTINUOUSLY just to get it to fly straight did not faze me in the least, I just got used to it. It took Del Lehmann and waiting until 2009 to get that slight control detail fixed and now it flies absolutely straight. Kind of took some of the adventure out of flying IFR in the clouds since it doesn't do an immediate wingover anymore when you look down at a chart or approach plate. My CFII never had to tell me to pay attention to the scan, I was scared NOT to.

Why not just get a L-19? Or if you really want to make it hard on yourself, get a C-195 Y-yoke which is very similar to a Beaver or Otter yoke and convert it to the 170. There is a 170 down in California you can get for $5000 to practice on.

I'm sure Cessna thought about controls when they designed the 170. Just think how constricted getting in and out would be with a stick (or two) in the way. At least the 195 Y-yoke would be in the middle.

I say give it a try and see what happens.

[bat443]

I think you need to hang on to the yoke differently. I had this discussion with a friend of mine who didn't like the "old fashioned" control yoke but wanted to change to "new" open U control yokes. I fly by laying my left wrist on top of the yoke and grasping the top of the loop on the right hand side just past the point where the control shaft attaches. A much more natural motion for me as opposed to grasping the vertical left hand portion of the yoke. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

Tim

[hilltop170]

I agree with Tim, left hand on top of the wheel. I even have my push-to-talk switch velcro'd to the underside of the yoke shaft at the wheel and actuate it with my "finger finger".

[bagarre]

I normally fly with thumb and forefinger on the outer corner of the yoke.
I've tried the hand over top method but it doesn't work for me.
On rather long flights, I like to stretch out and flight right handed on the passenger yoke.

[Metal Master]

All my initial flight training was in Gliders and my first real power plane training was in the Citabria all with a control yokes. Coordination (balance of controls aside) I also find a Control yoke more desirable than the yoke arrangement. My dream of owning a Helio Stallion comes to mind. I would also like to own an L-19. Turning into thermals and laying supine in a High performance glider is real natural and relaxing. I have in passing considered what it would take to put a control yoke in 170, just as a mental exercise and even reviewed what is installed in an L-19 on a superficial basis. Besides the fact that it would be a major STC with very little interest and need a complete a test flight program to get the STC approved, it would be a big job. But if I were building an Experimental all aluminum Cessna 170 type of aircraft with a TCM IO-360 for power it would be built with a stick. It would probably be easier to turn an L-19 into a four place? With both the two left seats as passenger seats. Can you imaging flying form the back left set of a Cessna 170 weird! From a flight control mechanical aspect it would be easier to put both sticks up front. But seriously a Cessna 170 is just to easy to fly as is.
Jim

[hilltop170]

Right hand on the wheel flying in the right seat feels natural to me. I took a CFI renewal check ride in December in the 170 and did all my prep in the right seat thinking the check ride would be given with me in the right side. Well, never try to out-guess an examiner, he had me sit in the left seat. It still worked out ok but really felt awkward after 5 hours or so in the right side.

[170C]

Well I guess if a Swift can be converted from yokes to sticks, a 170 could also, but as has been mentioned the paperwork would be like Johnny Cash's One Piece At A Time Cadillac and the expense would be major. I have rather limited "stick" time, but never got completely comfortable with them. One reason is that in my plane I can rest my left forearm on my arm rest and hold the yoke with that hand. With a stick I always felt there wasn't a way to rest my arm.. I'm sure with enough time I would get comfortable with a stick and most will eventually come to enjoy either one.

[TFA170]

I think you need to hang on to the yoke differently. I had this discussion with a friend of mine who didn't like the "old fashioned" control yoke but wanted to change to "new" open U control yokes. I fly by laying my left wrist on top of the yoke and grasping the top of the loop on the right hand side just past the point where the control shaft attaches. A much more natural motion for me as opposed to grasping the vertical left hand portion of the yoke. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

Tim

And my initial reply is that you're compensating for a poor design!

In all seriousness, as I imagine holding the yoke as you describe, I wonder how right roll and full aft works...it seems that because the elevator is true push-pull in a line, that any aileron is going to cause an adjustment in hand/wrist - with a stick, this doesn't happen at all.

In fairness, the same thing happens in the C130 as the 170, but only at the extremes.


To everyone else, thanks for the tolerance of a differing view. I have no desire to pave the way for an STC or any other such adventure. I will fly my 170 as-built, but I may be on the lookout for a beat up project that I can tinker with and do some "what if"-ing on...who knows?

[bagarre]

I dont think it would be that difficult to convert to sticks and it'd be a really cool mod.
It would make those center stack radios a lot easier.

Approval would be a nightmare the likes of which Steven King writes about.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I currently fly a helicopter with a force trim which can be defeated. When I'm stick flying it I release the force trim most of the time so the stick can be moved easily and movements are no more than slightly flexing your finger tips or knuckles. With the force trim on there is must more force required. Normal flight is right hand on the cyclic but I can fly equally as well with my left hand because if I was seated in the left seat, all the radios I have to switch are in the middle. I tell you this because my Cub with a stick is different. You can't really fly it with your finger tips. You grab the stick and flex your wrist. Of course throttle is left hand in the Cub.

Most of the time I'm flying my 170 I grab the yoke at the shaft over the top middle. Pull or push straight fore or aft and twist for roll. I use my left hand for this most of the time freeing my right up for throttle. However, on long cruising flights, with no one or my wife in the right seat I often fly the plane in the same manner with my right hand on the right yoke.

Of course I fly from the right in others airplanes or acting as CFI and have no problem with the yoke in my right hand and throttle in my left.

I've also got a few tenths of an hour flying side stick and it really didn't bother me or feel weird.

Now flying a helicopter with a yoke would be a treat to try. I've already flown a helicopter with more of a throttle quadrant for the collective that is normally found. I thought that might be a bigger deal but it really was not.

I guess at this point in my flying career, I pretty much don't care what controls are installed and really have no preference so long as it is fairly easy to get into the pilots seat. For this a yoke beats a stick, helicopter or airplane. But I don't spend a moment thinking about converting a stick to a yoke or visa versa.

[blueldr]

With me, a stickalways felt more normal on a airplane where the pilot sat on the center line of the airplane, but a yoke seems more normal where the pilot is off center. One of the wierdest feeling airplanes I ever flew was one of those Aeronca champs that had a wheel instead of a stick. To me, an of centerline stick does not feel nearly a queer as a centerline wheel.

[170C]

Guess they worked on the P-38's.

[Ryan Smith]

Guess they worked on the P-38's.

Anything works on a P-38. They're much cooler than Champs.

[Ryan Smith]

Maybe the guy that has the world's only Champ with a yoke is working on the world's only 170 with sticks.