Air Asia Loss of Control

[counsellj]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Once again a Loss-Of-Control event has occurred with an airliner resulting in the loss of the aircraft and all aboard. As you will see in upcoming editions of the association magazine we are going to delve into this issue of LOC rather deeply from several angles.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Ai ... 294-1.html

Here are the BIG LESSONS LEARNED:

1. Nuisance MX issues should not be ignored.

2. Failure to follow published Emergency Checklists can take you into uncharted territory.

3. Inappropriate pilot inputs can lead to a worsening situation in an upset.

4. Pilots often make incorrect control inputs during "startled stalls or upsets."

5. Poor communications leads to more problems, BE DIRECTIVE with CLEAR, CONCISE and CORRECT comm.

6. Autopilots must be CLOSELY monitored during abnormal/emergency situations. They can help you, but also hurt you very quickly.

The report is too large to post directly to our website. The above link will take you to the Avweb.com website. From there you should find the article with links to the report PDF near the top of the article and also at the bottom. Look for the blue PDF link in the 3rd line of the article and the NTSC Report located at the bottom under "RELATED LINKS."

Jon "Jughead" Counsel
TIC 170 Assoc
Safety Officer

[sfarringer]

That is indeed a remarkable demonstration of lack of communication, and lack of piloting skill.

[bagarre]

"The right sidestick was pulled for most of this segment, and the nose-down pitching commands of the left sidestick became ineffective because of the summing function of the system, resulting in ineffective control of the aircraft. "

Not sure what the summing function's algorithm is but I can't think of a situation where you'd want the inputs of one stick to be partially countered by the other.
I CAN see where you 'd want to completely over ride the inputs of the other stick but not a summing function.
odd

[counsellj]

Baggarre

Definitely one of the downsides of Fly-By-Wire systems. That and the complex/often confusing issue of what law of "automation" the plane is flying under when the fecal matter starts to be dispersed by the rotary environmental distribution mechanical/electrical device.

[blueldr]

Sounds to me like they needed a switch or button on the captains side stick to override the system.

[counsellj]

Sounds to me like they needed a switch or button on the captains side stick to override the system.

Blueldr,

They basically have that, it is an override button. Push it and you get the controls, hold it for 40 secs and you have the controls, until the other guy pushes his "Command" button, and then the Chinese of "Who is flying starts all over again." I don't understand these "Captains" that are supposed to be in charge and responsible, just sitting there and watching this go down, literally. Maybe it is my Fighter Pilot, Asshole mentality, but if things are going correctly in any airplane I am flying in as a crew, I'm taking control!!!!! NOW!!!!!!! The problem we are seeing even with the Captains, including some US ones, is that they have such low SA about what is occurring during LOC events is that they don't know what to do, how to fix it and therefore don't take command. Unfortunately as the membership will see over the course of my LOC upcoming education, this is very very typical flow of events in LOC accidents. Something small starts to occur, pilot actions/inaction leads to worse LOC event, inability to recognize/recover leads to loss of life/aircraft.

Remember, when all else falls, reduce the AOA, set a mid-range power and neutralize ailerons/rudders until you start to figure S--T out.

Jughead

[blueldr]

jughead,
it's funny that you would come up with the comment about "Chinese " and "Who is doing the flying".
I had a friend in the Air Force who had been a flight instructor during WWII in the B-25 , I think in Colorado some place, training Chinese pilots in the B-25.
He claimed that they could get an airplane into a spin and argue all the way to the ground about whose job it was to effect the recovery.

[edbooth]

The fix is probably going to be install a couple more sticks in there to fool with.

[counsellj]

jughead,
it's funny that you would come up with the comment about "Chinese " and "Who is doing the flying".
I had a friend in the Air Force who had been a flight instructor during WWII in the B-25 , I think in Colorado some place, training Chinese pilots in the B-25.
He claimed that they could get an airplane into a spin and argue all the way to the ground about whose job it was to effect the recovery.

That is too funny Blueldr. Because what I meant to type, and didn't notice it was missing was "Chinese Fire Drill" instead of Chinese. There are cultural issues with many many countries that their pilots posses that can become an issue during a crisis, including the U.S. of A.

[ghostflyer]

One area that is often over looked in CRM is the cultural differences that exist between 2 pilots . This also involves the sub conscience minds of both of them and their emotional intelligence . Members who have flown as second or first officers with Korean Airlines will know exactly what I am on about . It's my belief one of the reasons Korean had so many mishaps a few years ago . Also I do not wish to start a debate on which is the better aircraft BUT you will not encounter this problem on any Boeing . I fly all over the world in my job and refuse to fly on a Scarebus ( Airbus) .

[Seafeye]

Not to stir up the pot, but isn't there still a missing 777 out there?

[flyboy122]

"The right sidestick was pulled for most of this segment, and the nose-down pitching commands of the left sidestick became ineffective because of the summing function of the system, resulting in ineffective control of the aircraft. "

Not sure what the summing function's algorithm is but I can't think of a situation where you'd want the inputs of one stick to be partially countered by the other.
I CAN see where you 'd want to completely over ride the inputs of the other stick but not a summing function.
odd

This was the same thing that happened to that A330 that went down in the middle of the Atlantic a few years ago. The guy in the copilot seat held the stick back all the way down (3+ minutes) while the guy in the left seat couldn't figure out why when he pushed forward the rate of descent didn't change. They finally figured it out about 30 seconds from the end (the cockpit audio from the revelation is chilling).

Why in the heck Airbus would design something like this, EASA and FAA would certify it, airlines would buy it, and pilots would fly it is beyond me. This is what happens when people who aren't aviators (in Airbus' case the gov't bureaucrats who rammed through a European aerospace industry) are allowed to make decisions about aviation.

My boss, who used to work for Boeing, claimed that was one of the reasons Boeing still used control yokes instead of side sticks, and that they linked the yokes together for this very reason. Curiously enough, last year a French company (Thales or Dassault or something like that) began touting a new sidestick design with force feedback to the pilots. About time!

DEM

[blueldr]

ghostflyer,
My daughter , Nancy, used to fly Lockheed Hercs for Southern Air Transport and got blown up over in Sudan, east Africa, by an anti tank mine,
I never used to really worry about her until she went to work for Fred Smith flying AIR BUSSES over in Asia.

[hilltop170]

I know a retired 747 captain who flew for several Asian airlines during his career. He commented some of his copilots who were nationals of whatever airline he was flying at the time would fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground during an upset condition before they would deviate from the procedures they were trained on.

Jughead- You can edit your own posts if something needs to be changed.

[Seafeye]

Pilot training is the key. The 777 crash in San Fran never would have occurred if the pilots actually knew what they were doing. Perhaps we need a new system of logging flight time. The sitting at 35,000 with autopilot on for 8 hours isn't real experience. It's not like doing 4 legs and 4 CATII approaches. I seem to remember an old shop teacher telling me that it's a poor workman that blames his tools. Wether Airbus or Boing Cessna or Bombardier you have to know your machine.