Wheel Landings 170

[MoonlightVFR]

I prefer three point landings in Cessna 170 with wind straight down the runway.

Remember going through some challenges during initial instructions. I thought the instructor was being MEAN to me when he repeatedly announced on turning final "make this a full flaps to a WHEEL LANDING". I mean this was a difficult surprise, we would have 7 - 8 mph Cross winds. Yes, I was stressed. Don't like 40 degree flaps.

Later when recounting this training episode with a 172 pilot he merely stated," NO PROBLEM. No problem. Every landing I make in a 172 is a Wheel landing, Mains touch first then gently lower the nose gear.

I had heard that tricycle gear landings was less of a skill. There were snide comments about putting the "Training Wheel" up front.

Remember when Dad removed your training wheels from your bicycle and set you free upon the neighborhood?

Regards

[jrenwick]

In a wheel landing with full flaps, I always found I needed a surprising amount of throttle in order to keep the nose down for the landing.

Some types, like my Swift, "prefer" the wheel landing, and some pilots are more comfortable landing that way. I personally never thought it was necessary, or even better in some situations, to wheel-land a 170. My thinking was, if you're worried about a ground loop, it's best to touch down at the lowest possible speed. Because you can't ground loop if you're still in the air, and when it does happen, the slower you're rolling, the better. Also, with a 3-point landing, you avoid that awkward moment when the tail is still in the air, you don't have the tailwheel helping you steer, and your rudder is losing effectiveness. This may be less of a problem with the 170's fairly large rudder than with other types that have smaller tails.

[lowNslow]

I stay proficient with both since they both have their uses depending on the conditions. It's easier for me to "grease" a wheel landing when I have sensitive passengers on board. After 20 years in 44C, I found I prefer a modified wheel landing where I approach like I'm doing a 3-point/full stall, but gently put it on the mains while the tail is very low.

I agree, this is how I usually land as well. The problem with 3-point landings is it hard to make them 3-point when you are at lower gross weights - you end up touching down tailwheel first which can lead to a bounce and it puts stress on the main tail wheel spring. With tail low wheel landing you are still slow but still have good lateral control and if you dump the flaps your done flying.

[bagarre]

Nearly every landing I make is a wheel landing and I use the tail low technique as well. Specially in a crosswind.
As soon as the mains touch, forward yoke to lift the tail a tad and you're glued to the runway will full rudder authority. Hit the brakes and you'll stop as short as any 3 point.

When using 40 of flaps, I find it best to remain at pattern altitude and 90mph until short final before putting the last notch in. chop the power and point at the numbers; you'll make the first turn off
That's not a terrible exaggeration. I need to be really really high before I'll use 40.

[VFR52170B]

This is a good read. I hope we get some more responses.

- Joseph

[ghostflyer]

This is a good read as I am very interested how other people land there 170,s. I have always wheeled the old girl on , I feel I have more control and that includes bush landings or on the beach . On final ( the most important part of the landing ) I set the throttle at 1300 rpm (60 in pitch prop) and use aircraft attitude to control speed . My approach is at 55 to 60 kts and let the speed to wash off as I flare it and keep the aircraft level . As the mains touch the stall warning is starting to make a noise . I hold the tail up until airspeed as dropped that it wound support the tail in the air . As soon as the tail touches the control column is back as nearly far as it will go . It's only when the brakes are being applied that the throttle is retarded to idle and that's to 1000 rpm . I have found the engine responds quicker from 1300 rpm to full throttle if in a go round situation . Plus if having a heavy crosswind a little more power on landing helps on control especially on the rudder .
Thinking back on what I said on control of the throttle it all depends on what's happening as some times it's retarded as the wheels touch . I have to start doing those 3 pointers again . Those wheelers are so easy to do . I just worry about that tiny little wheel at the back taking all those stresses of landing .

[cessna170bdriver]

In a wheel landing with full flaps, I always found I needed a surprising amount of throttle in order to keep the nose down for the landing.

Some types, like my Swift, "prefer" the wheel landing, and some pilots are more comfortable landing that way. I personally never thought it was necessary, or even better in some situations, to wheel-land a 170. My thinking was, if you're worried about aww ground loop, it's best to touch down at the lowest possible speed. Because you can't ground loop if you're still in the air, and when it does happen, the slower you're rolling, the better. Also, with a 3-point landing, you avoid that awkward moment when the tail is still in the air, you don't have the tailwheel helping you steer, and your rudder is losing effectiveness. This may be less of a problem with the 170's fairly large rudder than with other types that have smaller tails.

I don't recall the tailwheel EVER helping me steer! As I've said here many times before, I fought the tail wheel for years trying to get it to show some semblance of steering, then talked to to charter member (now deceased) Cleo Bickford who said "it just ain't gonna happen". I usually do a wheelie in crosswinds, or in gusty conditions where you need a bit extra speed on final anyway. Not everyone agrees, but it's always worked for me.

[Joe Moilanen]

My normal landing is 3-point with 20 degrees of flaps. The first turn-off at my airport is 650', and I can't remember the last time that I missed it. Could usually stop in 3-400' even with 20 degrees in. I like 20 degrees because it makes a good go-around setting. I do wheelies to break up the monotony once in a while though, but usually with 20 degrees also.

Joe

[Elkslayer]

In my A model I always do wheel landings unless I'm off airport and short or soft. Even on the beaches I do the modified wheel landing like ghostflyer mentioned, its nice to have a little speed for that extra control. I found that even doing a wheel landing at 60 vs a 3 point at 50 only costs me about 75 to 100 feet when trying to stop short, plus it saves your tail springs off airport.

[stogie17]

I spent the last year learning to fly my 170B. Flew with a half dozen different instructors and learned something from each. I think I have the record number of landings for this year on the ski strip here. I had 10,000 hrs helicopter no airplane time. a lot of kidding about it not hovering. I hated wheel landings from the beginning till I finally got an instructor who made me pull the power on down wind, pull 40 deg flaps on final and wheel land to a spot. I still do 3points on really tight spots but finally mastered being able to point the nose at the spot at 70mph on final full flaps. level out stopping sink rate and speed and then planting it on mains at same speed as full stall. Tail drops quickly and as you said as short as full stall 3 point. It really helped me a lot. I've listened to a lot of opions about crosswind landings and my jury is still out.

[gfeher]

I thought I would add my 2 cents as a newbie - for another newbie's perspective. I'm relatively new to the 170 and taildraggers in general. I've had my stock '52 170B for about a year and I got my TW endorsement in it.

I find that the 170B does 3-point and wheel landings incredibly well. I'm constantly amazed how short the landing is with a 3-pointer, especially with 40 degrees of flaps. Hardly any roll out at all, especially on grass. Also, there is something about 40 degrees of flaps on a 3-pointer that let's the plane settle nicely onto all three wheels at the full stall. I don't always use 40 degrees for 3-pointers. But when I do, I like the way the plane settles at the end.

As for wheel landings, for other newbies out there, here's how I do them (stock 170B with C-145 engine). Usual downwind, base and final, except that I normally carry 30 or 40 degrees of flaps on short final. 70 mph (or 65 mph in light winds) on short final. Over the fence or trees, where you would normally cut the power to idle for a 3-pointer, I cut the power to 1300 rpm (or you can carry 1300 rpm on all of short final). Where you normally would begin your flare for a 3-pointer, I begin my "flare" for the wheelie, except I just level off to skim over the ground as the plane gently descends. I continue skimming level as the plane descends until the mains touch. As soon as the mains touch, I put forward pressure on the yoke to keep the tail up (about the same amount of pressure as when you lift the tail for takeoff) and cut the power to idle. I keep adding forward pressure to keep the tail up until the tail drops on its own or until i want to let the tail down. As soon as the tail wheel touches, I add full back pressure on the yoke as you would normally do for a 3-pointer. I find that the key is the 1300 rpm power just before the flare. It seems to give a nice gentle rate of descent at the end. I find that this approach gives me consistent wheelies (even with my "springy" stock early gear legs).

I don't have a preference for either 3-pointers or wheelies. I enjoy both of them. They are different tools for different situations. But I do find that I can land shorter with a 3-pointer.

[blueldr]

I used to prefer wheel landings for the better directional control on the roll out and for being able to put more weight on the mains for brakeing. I always found tail wheel steering almost non available except for very minor turning at very low speeds.

[GAHorn]

Lightly loaded (only one or two occupants) I find 40-degrees of flaps make for a more difficult wheel landing, so I usually only deploy 30-degrees of flaps in that situation, and it does nicely. (When light, 40-flaps result in a higher AOA at touchdown and require more attention to avoid a bounce.)
I reserve 40-degree flaps for 3-point and heavier wheel landings.

[stogie17]

I agree on 40 deg flaps harder. I had always done wheel landings at 20 or none as probably do in trying wind conditions. Also already set up to go around. But once I got the 40deg wheelies mastered with no bounce and smooth, it really helped me with everything else. I think it really helped with finesse and all my landing improves at lot. A lots of people told me here in AK they always touch down on wheels first to protect tail wheel from rough ground. To me it is like a full stall 3point except instead of pulling on back you just sort of roll up on front wheels just as touch.I think depends on surfac e condition. Still learning so certainly no expert. Lots of fun practicing though.

[48rwflyboy]

Just found this thread and it certainly shows the interest we all have in wheel vs. full stall landings. I have only flown a '48 ragwing with the skimpy 30 deg flaps but over many years learned a few things especially on those long distant x-country trips where winds can humble you quickly and make you wonder if you really know your airplane! It was short time after owning the 170 that I realized I needed a different technique for that un-responsive tailwheel. Slowly I learned how to apply braking ever so gently to keep things straight. Also got great advice on rigging the tailwheel from members in the club. There is alot of weight (about 200 lbs) on the tailwheel and full stall landings were taking a toll on it except on grass fields. Eventually all my landings became wheeled on to save the little guy on the back end. Also, found that I could still get fairly slow and still wheel it on between 60-65 mph with 30 deg of flaps and keep it under 800-1000 ft to stop (usually). The most interesting thing I have realized is how much using flaps even in strong x-wind conditions helps keep the center of pressure further aft of the CG helping directional stability and rolling out tail high to pin it onto the runway. If your rear seat is occupied, this really helps balance out the rearward CG. Of course braking is necessary to get down below stall speed before lowering the tail. If you have any doubt about the effectiveness of how the moving the center of pressure back helps, just land with flaps and try retracting them during the roll out! I used to think that would help pin it onto the runway but it actually caused a severe drop in the tail and a struggle to keep things straight. Not to mention taking your hand off the throttle for a second or two is a bad idea. Would love to fly an A or B model sometime to see any difference those flaps might make.