Airplane Rides - Liability

[juredd1]

I can't sleep tonight and got to thinking about giving airplane rides to folks that have asked over the years that has just never happened for one reason or another. I was asked yesterday about giving one to a friend of my brother-in-law so that probably got me to thinking. Since receiving my license in 2005 I have probably been asked by maybe 75 people (I know that's not a lot of people it was not meant to be a brag) and have probably only given a total of 8-10 people rides and that consisted of pretty much only close friends and family.

I was just thinking of liability concerns. One lady that used to take monthly pictures of our kids in their first year of life asked me to take her teenage daughter and a couple friends up for her daughters birthday. I don't recall the reason but we were never able to put it together. However, I recall that she had asked if they needed to sign a liability form or something close to that, it's been a few months back.

So I guess I got to thinking there's just not that many people in my area that fly and the closest airport (Harrison, KHRO) is like a dead zone. Rarely anyone around unlike the glory days of 20+ years ago when my Uncle says it was an awesome place to be on weekends. Sorry got off subject there a bit but was thinking maybe I should shout at some of those folks that have asked over the years that I once said I'd take up and like I said for one reason or another it never happened. I never really had concerns then about be liable for them as a rider but now that I have two young kids to think about maybe it's more of a concern for me. I enjoy taking folks for rides, I like to hearing them talk about it to other family or friends. There has never been anyone that told me they didn't like it. A couple have failed to tell me they get sick easily...I have learned to ask before planning the flight. I want people I know to feel what I feel when I leave the ground and see where I've lived for most of my life from a different point of view. Fly the Buffalo River and watch the canoeing from a different point of view.

I Uncle has taken hundreds of people up over his 45+ years of flying (Me included, it's his fault I fly now) and I have never heard him express concern and I'm not 100% sure why I am now but I know some folks will sue someone at the drop of a hat these days. I used to be a big hunter when I was a teenager and a couple hunting buddies that were brothers and their family was know for taking advantage of opportunities if you get my point. My parents would always warn me, if something happens and one of those boys gets hurt it won't matter if they are your friends or not.

So friends or not, my fault or not I am the pilot and if someone gets hurt I could have to answer for that.

I have found some old threads that lightly discussed this, probably missed some that covered it more. I know some of you give lots of rides and I know some of you don't make a habit of it. Is there simple ways to protect myself by having something written up they can sign? It almost seems as if I am be un-friendly to present some release of liability to a friend or friend of a friend before taking them flying. I don't think I have ever been asked by someone I didn't know in some fashion or another but wouldn't consider them a close friend. Just not sure how to handle it properly.

For example my Uncle that fly's goes with me more than anyone else. I know if something happened and he was injured he would not do a thing he understand the risk but if he was killed what could his grown children put my family through seeking some sort of compensation?

Just looking for some thoughts on the subject.

Thanks,
Justin

[juredd1]

Well I'm thinking to much this morning when I'd rather be sleeping.

I know there's not a fix all, I know you can be to anal about some things. Sometimes as has been said before on this forum don't worry about it and just go fly. Maybe this is one of those times. I just wanted to put that out there. I am not trying to be guy that is so nervous about this that I'm walking on egg shells every time I take someone up. I don't like the idea I just don't want my family to be held liable for something I did.

Justin

[Ryan Smith]

Interested to hear replies. I'm in the final stages of training for my private (written scheduled for Sunday evening after a refresher ground school, a few more hours of flying, and I'll be hopefully taking my check ride in the 170 in late April/early May), and I've had friends asking to fly for a long time once I got my private. Being a professional student, I've got about <ridiculously high number redacted to protect the guilty> hours of flying under by belt in the last 18 years, so I feel reasonably confident that I can fly passengers with relative comfort, however I am a bit gun shy because of a fatal accident that occurred at my airport a month ago that I've been involved with the NTSB investigation on. The gentleman that was killed (sole occupant) was a prominent leader in my hometown, and he was flying a rental airplane. So far, the estate has been quiet, but I'm afraid of what's to come after the factual report is released.

My initial reaction is that if you think you may need to sign a release to take someone flying, then perhaps they're not the people you should be taking, and your flying close friends and family is the smartest and safest option. Asking someone to sign a release is not particularly confidence inspiring, even if it's simply a formality to protect your family. How is your liability coverage structured?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Justin,

Here is my philosophy on such things. I will not deny myself a pleasure for fear someone might sue me. Giving airplane rides is a pleasure for me or else I wouldn't do it. I try to act responsibly. I wouldn't fly my plane unless I felt it airworthy and I protect myself with reasonable insurance. In short I try to act and conduct myself in a way I think 12 of my peers think is reasonable. Then I let the chips fall where they may.

I've been very lucky in my life that people have shared their passion, what ever it is, with me, and they still do. And so I share my passions with others and help others with theirs when I can. And the circle goes round and round. I specially like to involve younger folks which is a little trickier given parents are involved. I would prefer to give parents and their kids rides at the same time. Or at least insist they are at the airport to see and understand what is gong on and enjoy the experience with their kids.

Would you give these same folks a ride in your car? You probably would without thinking about it. Yet statistically they are in much more danger than they would be on an airplane ride.

[strangebird]

Get some sleep and quit worrying, give the rides and enjoy it, be somewhat selective who you take, if they are decent folk then say yes, you do have insurance? if so, then go for it and fly like you were meant to. give back what some one gave to you

A few years ago I gave a first ride to a young man, and he was later accepted to the US Air Force Academy, now what if I had not done that? What if that farmer that gave me a ride at age 14 had not, that ride changed my whole life and kept me focused on what is important to me, flying kept me out of trouble and brought me so many blessings and memories, even today 49 years later I still remember that ride.

[n3833v]

If you are so concerned, check into EAA program for flying Young Eagles for introduction in aviation. Flying young people the insurance covers you and for the adult program I am not sure. I have insurance coverage for flying friends and as Bruce says, let the chips fall as I also give lots of rides.

John

[jrenwick]

I'll bet most of us are underinsured in aircraft, relative to auto insurance policies. $100,000 personal injury is common for aircraft policies, whereas your auto liability coverage is probably more like $250,000. That seems to be the case in Minnesota, anyway. In the case of a fatal accident, the deceased's family may be shocked at how low the payout is.

[juredd1]

Thank you all for your replies, I am not sure how my insurance policy is written up with regards to friends, when I get some extra time I will look into it but figure it's just a standard policy and the $100,000 that 'jrenwick' mentioned sounds real familiar.

Arash thanks for the links those might be helpful if I go that way. I don't want to ask people to sign such a form but like I said it was just on my mind a little this morning and wanted to get some thoughts on it.

Bruce you are right I likely would not give a second thought to letting them ride in my car but a large majority of the non-pilots I know consider it a much higher risk experience. Just guessing it would get scrutinized more in the unlikely even of an accident. My uncle passed it on to me and I'd like to be responsible for passing the bug on to someone else.

Do many of you carry more than $100,000 for your passengers?

Justin

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I do not carry more that $100K per person. Some do with what is called a smooth policy. A smooth policy doesn't have individual limits. If the policy is for $1M then that amount can be paid to one individual or split between several from the same incident. But the total max paid will not exceed the $1M.

I have the impression that the $100K is extremely standard in the airplane insurance world. In other words in having this policy limit I'm acting as responsible as most. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Is $100K enough? Is $1M enough? Maybe $10M? There is a popular thought that the more you are insured for the more likely you are to be sued. Has nothing to do with merit or need of the injured. There is simply a bigger pot to be won by the lawyers.

[jrenwick]

I have the impression that the $100K is extremely standard in the airplane insurance world. In other words in having this policy limit I'm acting as responsible as most. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I have the same impression, Bruce. But the minimums for auto insurance (set by the states, as I understand it) are much higher. It's that disparity that concerns me: non-pilots acquainted with their auto insurance policies have trouble understanding why our liability limits are so much lower.

I've heard of "smooth" $1M policies, but I haven't seen one offered to me yet, and I don't know how much more I'd have to pay for one. None of the insurance companies I've dealt with would offer it.

[pdb]

I have the impression that the $100K is extremely standard in the airplane insurance world. In other words in having this policy limit I'm acting as responsible as most. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Bruce:

You have identified a conundrum to which there is no good answer unless you are already broke, hence judgement proof. Having a small policy limit (I consider $100k small) almost guarantees that in the event of a serious accident, you will get sued and a pilot's personal assets will be put at risk. Having a large limit means that almost certainly the policy will be like having a financial lightening rod and you will definitely get sued but the first $1M or 2M of the insurance company's money will first go towards your defense. The plaintiff's attorney knows that the more dollars consumed in legal defense expense, the less are readily available for their claims. My sense is that they are more amenable to settle within the policy limits.

When I was young and virtually broke, $100K was probably more than I needed. Now I am not not quite in the same situation and have more to lose.

[C170U2]

Fly as many people as you can. The memories you create for yourself and others outweigh any of the risks associated. Carry a insurance policy for liability and have at it! Can't tell you how many rides I have given over the years and I never once worried about it. Maybe I'm naive and reckless, but who cares.

Just this last weekend I gave rides to 8 of the little kids in my kids pre-school class. What a time!!

[3958v]

I too have thought of this problem. It always seemed to me like the average liability policy fo aviation has very low limits. I have used two things to limit my exposure. One any young person that qualifies I will sign up as a young eagle regaurdless of wether or not the flight is part of an event. Another thing I do not give rides in weather that is not good or do anything which could ever be considered reckless. Over the years I have given lots of rides and have no regrets. As far as I am concerned the rewards far exceed the risks. Bill K

[jrenwick]

The minimum liability insurance requirements for private passenger vehicles in CA is laughably low.

$15,000 for injury/death to one person.
$30,000 for injury/death to more than one person.
$5,000 for damage to property.

That's like having no insurance at all. Crazy!

[Kyle Wolfe]

It's too bad we don't have access to an umbrella policy that has our aviation policy as the underlying limits - like many of us use to provide larger limits than offerred by our typical auto/homeowner policies. I've never seen or heard of these available for aviation policies.