Importing from Canada

[WWhunter]

I am trying to help my son locate and purchase a plane to fulfill his dreams. He recently returned from deployment in Afganistan, when he was there he spend his spare time deciding what type of plane he would like. The 170, particularly a 'B' model is at the top of his list. In our search we have found that there are not many that come up for sale and when they do, sold fairly quickly if priced reasonably. We have found dlanes for sale in Canada that are of interest but having never dealt with buying and bringing one across the border, there are questions.

Has anyone here ever imported a 170, or any other plane for that matter, from Canada? Is it very difficult or expensive?

Thank you!

[GAHorn]

It depends.
You have some reading to do, and then you have to find an aircraft inspector who is qualified and certificated to assist you to determine the aircraft's conformance with it's type design certificate.

Here's two links which may assist you:

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC ... g-Aircraft

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/in ... _approval/

If...it was originally manufactured in the U.S..... and If it has not been highly modified while in Canada.... and If NO PROBLEMS are found with it's airworthiness and title, you can expect to spend at least $1000.00 to get it inspected/certificated for export/imported and listed on the U.S. registry. This is money which will be above and beyond what you might ordinarily expect to spend when purchasing the identical aircraft already registered in the U.S.

Hope this helps.

[hilltop170]

Thanks from everyone in the association go to your son for his service to the country. And congratulations on your son's decision to buy a Cessna 170. If you and he take your time and do it right, it will be a rewarding experience for both of you.

Importing an aircraft from Canada can be a very exasperating experience or it can go very smoothly if everything works out like it should. No matter what, it will take a considerable amount of planning and prep work to get all the bases covered, however, and can be expensive depending on where it is located and what needs to be done to get it to pass a conformity inspection for issuance of a US Certificate of Airworthiness. You can negotiate anything into the deal that the seller is willing to agree to such as bringing the plane close to the border where access and resources are more readily available.

I purchased a plane in Toronto and negotiated a US Certificate of airworthiness into the deal as well as the seller would correct any airworthiness discrepencies found in an annual inspection done by my IA before the deal was done and the plane left Canada.

I scheduled a two week trip to Canada to purchase the plane and pre-planned as much of the process as I could before I went. The title search had already been done by AOPA and I had sent a refundable deposit to the seller to hold the plane while all the prep work was done. I had already reserved a US N-number for the plane weeks before I travelled to Canada. I brought my IA from the US who was an expert in that particular type plane to give the plane an annual inspection which did uncover a few problems that the seller had fixed while we were there. I then had an FAA designated inspector come from Buffalo, NY to inspect the airplane and he was able to issue the C of A before the plane left Canada. Once I had a C of A, I requested the N-Number be assigned to the plane and it was ready to fly home once the old Canadian C-Number was painted over and the new N-Number was carefully painted on the side of the plane with rattle can paint. It was an impressive looking plane, worn out paint and interior and spray can painted N-Numbers. It was going straight to the paint shop anyway so I didn't care what it looked like.

The customs guys winced when I rolled up to the gate. But once they realized all of the paperwork was in order and everything was done correctly, the entry went smoothly. Since I owned it and t had a N-Number and US C of A, it was not an importation to the US, it was a simple border crossing. I can't remember but I might have gotten a registration certificate from the FAA guy also, but I'm not sure, it might have been a pink slip and it was 1998. Things might be a little different now.

It might take more than one trip to get everything taken care of and they can get expensive. Especially if the plane is in the Yukon or the northern end of the provinces. Like George said above, it will add significant expense over and above the purchase price to get the plane back home with all the bases covered.

I had a buddy who didn't do his homework and went to Northern BC and bought a modified Stinson with a non-standard engine for that plane and flew it back to Alaska. His troubles started at the border, the plane was impounded and it was well over a year before he got all the approvals and paperwork straightened out and finally got his C of A and registration certificate. He spent many thousands of dollars to even get the plane airworthy as he did not have an annual done before he bought it. So beware and good luck. I would not go thru that process again, once is enough for me and I didn't have any major problems.

[c170b53]

I don't think cross border sales are difficult, but like many posts on buying an aircraft on this site suggest, Do your homework and Know what you're buying. Probably the biggest sore points are the modifications carried out, equipment removed or installed and repairs to the aircraft. Each item within each of those categories has to have paperwork that supports the activity. The only way you"ll know whether the paperwork is appropriate is with a very good inspection of the plane and paperwork.
I'm a Canadian so I've heard of horror stories both ways and horror stories of local sales. Almost all of them were due to paperwork and the lack of knowledge.
As an example; this happened to a friend of mine.
He bought a DH2 Beaver, a very early model, and I believe it came from the US. The Ministry of transport inspected the aircraft and advised the owner that all the flight control surfaces, including the wings lacked identification, specifically the s/n data tag. They advised the owner that the surfaces would have to be removed and rebuilt / inspected. So my friend went ahead, carried out those tasks and when finished went about ordering new data tags. The DH parts supplier contacted, specified the time required to supply but was intrigued as to why he needed the tags. Seems DH started identifying a ships components with the s/n data plates aprox 10 ships after his s/n.

[GAHorn]

As Jim just mentioned, ...not all "authorities" are truly knowledgeable. Another anecdotal instance similar to that story was the Beechcraft which was taken to Canada and it's components did not match the aircraft serial number. It took much time and many dollars to convince the MOT that Beech did not identify flight controls and sub-assemblies with serial numbers, but used construction-numbers instead that were NOT necessarily tied to the aircraft serial. (I.E. an aileron with a datatag number of 407 might have been on the production line but installed on aircraft serial 404. That is not uncommon on brand NEW airplanes from that mfr'r. ,... but it caused considerable consternation during the import process.
Well.... not to confuse the original poster with detail not applicable to his question, but the point is to ascertain the credentials and the past-experience of the inspectors before hiring them. There are people who do this for a living and they charge appropriately for their services. Be prepared to pay them their fee and avoid taking the "cheap way" with someone who has little or no experience previously in this regard. Get references...and CALL those references, or use a commercial provider. (This is one area an experienced and reliable professional aircraft broker....a person neither needed nor recommended in usual transactions between private parties..... can be well worth his fee.)

[W.J.Langholz]

Hey WW Hunter

How you been? Haven't heard from you in a while. Is your wife still in the service too?

George and Richard are both friends of mine and are good people. If your son buys a 170, he needs to join this group for sure. Lots of good stuff here. George and Richard both are a good source of info.

Seems like just yesterday that your son left, glad he is home, tell him thanks from me too.

Willie

[flyboy122]

I came really close to doing this last year. Had the DAR lined up and everything. The airplane needs to be squeaky clean paperwork-wise. Everything has to match the FAA TCDS, or have an FAA STC. 337's for the most part don't transfer over. You might be able to use them as a basis for a FAA 337 (the operative word here being "might"), but at a minimum you'll still have to do the paperwork. Not a big deal, right?

Show me a 60+ year old airplane that 100% meets type design. Show me a plane that old without a stack of 337's. If one exists it's in a museum, and was put there in 1959. And if you did find one you wouldn't want it anyway because a lot of that original stuff back than was junk compared to what's available now. The reality is that over 60 years hardware, instruments, wiring, etc.. get's changed out. A pragmatic DAR might pencil whip some of this stuff, but you'll know and that skeleton will be in the closet the whole time you own the airplane.

Unless you are buying something exceedingly rare (which 170's aren't), or are getting some kind of smoking deal, it's probably not worth it. Sorry.

BTW, the old-fashioned snail mail TIC170A newsletter has airplanes advertised in it that you don't see on Trade-a-plane and Barnstormers. If you are serious about a 170, join now if for no other reason that it may give you a lead on some good airplanes at good prices that other buyers aren't seeing.

DEM

[c170b53]

Already mentioned but make sure that everything conforms to the type and with respect to alterations ie a repair;
1) repairs were done to a standard
2 the repair is supported by the proper paperwork
3) parts in the repair are traceable and correct for the application.

The same requirements would apply to mods and installations

Would importing be worth it? Depending on the price you'll likely save somewhere between 3 to 12000k. At the low end price range, it likely wouldn't be worth the trouble. At the high end you might save a bit on the sale but you'll be spending on logistics of the import. Tough call.

[GAHorn]

I should like to point out that the degree of investigation into the airworthiness and documentation of all repairs and modifications mentioned thus far.... should actually be performed on ANY airplane ANYWHERE whether it's to be imported/exported or not.

The problem of a Canadian airplane coming back into the U.S. where it was originally manufactured is not a huge obstacle. But it can be expensive if the seller is not willing to do his due diligence and confirm to the buyer (and supply all the documentation of support) that the airplane has been maintained in a state of airworthiness acceptable to both certification authorities.

The distances, custom fees, and investigator's fees are the additional troubles in the process. Read the AOPA article link posted above and you will be much better equipped to make any decisions.

[daedaluscan]

I agree, there really are much fewer planes here, which Is why I ended up buying mine in the US

[crwrpmr]

As was mentioned, good aircraft do not stay on the market long. I bought two aircraft sight unseen. One from Trade a Plane and the 170 from the Canadian Owners and Pilots classifieds. Not a recommended procedure as anyone will advise but I did due diligence with the owners, previous owners and a prepurchase inspection by a trusted engineer.
I was one of the first to enquire about the recently placed for sale ads, and committed to the purchase in a day or two.
Both owners stored the aircraft for me several months before I could pick them up.
The interesting comment from the sellers when I met them was that interest in the aircraft was high after the aircraft was sold to me. The 170 owner told me he had 60 enquiries and if I didn't want the aircraft he would buy it back. The other aircraft had similar interest and I had call from a gentleman that offered me more than I paid and I hadn't even picked it up yet.
If a good aircraft is new to the market and has a wide advertisement field it won't be on the market long.
Rob

[T. C. Downey]

I have helped import several aircraft from Canada,
you must request an N number from the FAA.and then apply it to the aircraft.
Then you must do the AD and Annual requirements for airworthiness. Canada requires SBs to be complied with, so any AD should have been a SB prior to becoming an AD down here that is pretty easy to enter the AD to the maintenance records, or comply with the AD.
Any modifications to the aircraft must either a field approval or an STC.

When those items are complied with, you request your FSDO or an DAR to issue the Airworthiness certificate.

and then you are good to go.

The easiest way to get the aircraft down here is to have the Canadian pilot fly it here and buy them a ticket home.