Good news and bad news for our 170s

[canav8]

Justin. The change is that a fee based structure has been introduced to an area where no fee existed before in aircraft registration. There will be no way to repeal this fee. Now all it takes is the federal government to say increase the fee and we all will pay. It is utter BS. Doug

[GAHorn]

Aircraft registration rules do not allow leading zeros.

OR...leading "O"s....

[wingnut]

An IA can perform an annual inspection, and sign it off as airworthy even if the registration is not there. However, a pilot can not legally fly the plane without it on board.

[wingnut]

That makes sense to me, thanks Del.

Airworthiness Certificate and Registration are an operations reg. Part 91 in this case, and the owner/operators responsibility. The annual inspection as discussed here in this topic, and other maintenance ops per FAR 43 are where the protocol for an IA end legally, but not ethically. Part 65 is also relevant, and connects the dots, but does not change the fact that the owner/operator is primarily responsibly for for airworthiness of the aircraft they decide to push throttle to firewall. The Airworthiness cert and Reg cert absolutely must be in the aircraft for flight ops, but not maintenance ops.
Now, with that said, and with the new regs in place concerning expiring registrations, I now spend the $10 and order the CD from the OK City Reg Branch of the FAA for every aircraft we work on, annual inspection or not. This is not a requirement. I do feel by doing this it helps me help the owner, and will help with bringing their knowledge of the aircraft up to date. Of course that record is only as good as the people who provided info throughout the history of the aircraft. It's one of those "garbage in, garbage out" scenarios, and we can only use what is available to us.
An annual inspection in my shop is not cheap. I have read here that an Annual should take about 20 hours if done right and concur. There are so many reasons why that number of hours may not work out. Sure, the inspection can be done in 20 hours. In fact a good one can be done in 20 hours. Problem is previous documentation. That alone can easily double or triple the time required to get documentation in order. I support George in his effort to help folks realize this, and this is evident throughout his writing on this subject.
I did not intend to hijack the thread, but this is a rather important part of ownership and worthy of consideration.

[jrenwick]

Thanks, Del. I was thinking along those lines when I wondered if IAs should be checking for a valid registration, but you've taken it a step further by ordering the CD. Many owners and pilots misunderstand the full meaning of airworthiness and what their responsibilities are. This is where a consciencious IA can help.

[wingnut]

Thanks, Del. I was thinking along those lines when I wondered if IAs should be checking for a valid registration, but you've taken it a step further by ordering the CD. Many owners and pilots misunderstand the full meaning of airworthiness and what their responsibilities are. This is where a consciencious IA can help.

We are all in this, and in it together. The owner/IA relationship is among the most important interaction we can have. I still believe we (aircraft owners, pilots, and mechanics) have comparatively easy regulations to comply with. The key is communication and understanding best we can of each others regulatory environment and requirements for each of us to be in compliance.

[T. C. Downey]

Thanks, Del. I was thinking along those lines when I wondered if IAs should be checking for a valid registration, but you've taken it a step further by ordering the CD. Many owners and pilots misunderstand the full meaning of airworthiness and what their responsibilities are. This is where a consciencious IA can help.

We are all in this, and in it together. The owner/IA relationship is among the most important interaction we can have. I still believe we (aircraft owners, pilots, and mechanics) have comparatively easy regulations to comply with. The key is communication and understanding best we can of each others regulatory environment and requirements for each of us to be in compliance.

A Question for Del.... When there is no registration in the aircraft, how do you know it is a US aircraft? We are only allowed to work on US registered aircraft.

[wingnut]

Loaded question. Can you rephrase the question?

[ghostflyer]

I had a smile on my face when I was reading all of the previous comments. You guys have it so good ,try having a aircraft in some other countries. For example in Australia Just to transfer ownership costs $130 dollars . This is done on line without a person interfering [processing] it . Your licence renewal here costs about $270. The doctor that performs your medical collects the fees for the licence renewal and sends it into the government. Now we have SIDS here for all cessnas. It's compulsory . Most of the older Cessna,s are now on the scrap heap. I have been quoted $12,000 to $28,000 for a SIDS inspection on my Cessna 170A. I am lucky as I now can do my own SIDS inspection and sign for it due to my qualifications.
Plus just to make ones eyes water I have a friend that has a Cessna 340 series with a brand new engine and the other engine that's done about 640 hrs have to do a SIDS inspection for $65,000 . This aircraft is in as new condition with only 3270 hrs. I wish I could live in the USA and receive the freedoms that you have. Sorry I just fell off my soapbox.

[wingnut]

Thanks, Del. I was thinking along those lines when I wondered if IAs should be checking for a valid registration, but you've taken it a step further by ordering the CD. Many owners and pilots misunderstand the full meaning of airworthiness and what their responsibilities are. This is where a consciencious IA can help.

We are all in this, and in it together. The owner/IA relationship is among the most important interaction we can have. I still believe we (aircraft owners, pilots, and mechanics) have comparatively easy regulations to comply with. The key is communication and understanding best we can of each others regulatory environment and requirements for each of us to be in compliance.

A Question for Del.... When there is no registration in the aircraft, how do you know it is a US aircraft? We are only allowed to work on US registered aircraft.

Tom,
I do not understand why you wait a year to bring up this question. I tried via private message and a telephone call so that you could better explain (and I better understand where you are going with this). No joy. Are you implying that I cannot sign off an annual inspection as airworthy and approve the plane for return to service if the registration cert is missing or expired? If so, can you point me to the FAR (or even an AC for guidance) that supports this? It would seem to me that having current and valid airworthiness and registration certs on board the aircraft would be an operating rule, and not a Part 65 or 43 rule, in which case not my problem. It would be the operators responsibility.
I know the following AC65-19G has been cancelled or superceded. (I recalled this paragraph from memory and had to dig up my old IA study guide materials, where it appears to read exactly as I remember). Is there some FAR or AC that supports your statement above, and those you sent to me via PM? If "we" are only allowed to work on U.S. registered aircraft, why would our FAA 337 form have a block to record NATIONALITY and Registration. I like to learn Tom. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I will publically apologize, but do NOT misquote me as you did in your PM to me and as you did on the phone. If you quote me please use the copy/paste feature.

The bold underlined is my emphasis.

"The holder of an IA should refer to the registration and airworthiness certificates for the owner's
name and address and for the aircraft make, model, registration, and serial numbers needed for recording
purposes. Be sure not to use manufacturers' trade names as they do not always coincide with the actual model
designation (Cessna Skylane is 182, Piper Seneca III is PA 34 220T, etc.). If registration and airworthiness
certificates are not available, the aircraft need not be reported in an unairworthy condition; however, the owner or
operator should be informed that the documents must be in the aircraft and the airworthiness certificate displayed
as required by 14 CFR section 91.203 WHEN THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATED.
"

[c170b53]

Arash..Ah- no! With the Canadian dollar tanking, you' d be living up here like H Hughes right now
The thing about rules is there's no end to them but then there's the # 1 rule; there are no rules. Which pretty much sums up the reason we all participate in the constant game of Snakes and ladders adult version, we loving call aviation.
As far as Bilateral aviation agreements go, basically a plane can be maintained anywhere as long as the maintenance provider is recognized by the state. Thus I believe work performed by a FAA repair station or an AMO are equal as long as their scope of work they perform is again recognized by their regulatory authorities and then all the other usual rules, as usual.
Oh another rule; you get what you pay for, which among rules is got to be close to rule #1.

[wingnut]

Thanks, Del. I was thinking along those lines when I wondered if IAs should be checking for a valid registration, but you've taken it a step further by ordering the CD. Many owners and pilots misunderstand the full meaning of airworthiness and what their responsibilities are. This is where a consciencious IA can help.

We are all in this, and in it together. The owner/IA relationship is among the most important interaction we can have. I still believe we (aircraft owners, pilots, and mechanics) have comparatively easy regulations to comply with. The key is communication and understanding best we can of each others regulatory environment and requirements for each of us to be in compliance.

A Question for Del.... When there is no registration in the aircraft, how do you know it is a US aircraft? We are only allowed to work on US registered aircraft.

Tom,
I do not understand why you wait a year to bring up this question. I tried via private message and a telephone call so that you could better explain (and I better understand where you are going with this). No joy. Are you implying that I cannot sign off an annual inspection as airworthy and approve the plane for return to service if the registration cert is missing or expired? If so, can you point me to the FAR (or even an AC for guidance) that supports this? It would seem to me that having current and valid airworthiness and registration certs on board the aircraft would be an operating rule, and not a Part 65 or 43 rule, in which case not my problem. It would be the operators responsibility.
I know the following AC65-19G has been cancelled or superceded. (I recalled this paragraph from memory and had to dig up my old IA study guide materials, where it appears to read exactly as I remember). Is there some FAR or AC that supports your statement above, and those you sent to me via PM? If "we" are only allowed to work on U.S. registered aircraft, why would our FAA 337 form have a block to record NATIONALITY and Registration. I like to learn Tom. Please correct me if I'm wrong and I will publically apologize, but do NOT misquote me as you did in your PM to me and as you did on the phone. If you quote me please use the copy/paste feature.

The bold underlined is my emphasis.

"The holder of an IA should refer to the registration and airworthiness certificates for the owner's
name and address and for the aircraft make, model, registration, and serial numbers needed for recording
purposes. Be sure not to use manufacturers' trade names as they do not always coincide with the actual model
designation (Cessna Skylane is 182, Piper Seneca III is PA 34 220T, etc.). If registration and airworthiness
certificates are not available, the aircraft need not be reported in an unairworthy condition; however, the owner or
operator should be informed that the documents must be in the aircraft and the airworthiness certificate displayed
as required by 14 CFR section 91.203 WHEN THE AIRCRAFT IS OPERATED."

Edit to add...........The above copy/paste was from a cancelled AC65-19G (apologies for that, I still had a copy of it in my IA study materials), however FAA-G-8082-19 has the exact same language, and also contains the following paragraph, and again the bold underline is my emphasis;

"Aircraft Markings
Required aircraft identification markings are discussed in 14 CFR part 45. It is the owner’s or operator’s responsibility to have the nationality and registration markings properly displayed on the aircraft (14 CFR part 91, § 91.9(c)). The holder of an IA can and should offer advisory service to owners and operators in regard to any deficiencies in markings; however, such deficiencies are not cause to report an aircraft in “unairworthy” condition.

As I understand the regs, I can sign off an annual inspection even if the plane does not have registration markings, airworthiness cert or registration cert (although I would not argue that doing so may not be wise, for other reasons unrelated to airworthiness). It is suggested that I inform the owner of these operating rules, but have no bearing on the airworthiness of the aircraft.

Tom, please correct me if I am wrong, and direct me to the information you have that will show me that I am wrong. I really want to do my job correctly.
One more question; Where would I find the FAR that tells me I am only allowed to work on U.S registered aircraft?

[Ryan Smith]

To support Del's last sentence...who has the authority to perform a conformity inspection when re-importing an aircraft back into the US, regardless of whether or not it was built in the US or has ever been in the US previously. Certainly the Feds aren't going to allow a repairman that doesn't hold any certificates with the FAA to certify that aircraft conforms to the applicable FARs. Until an airplane is proven airworthy and holds a US registration/airworthiness certificate, it's still a foreign aircraft.