The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

[Metal Master]

New A&P mechanic on the horizon
Regarding the future of A&P's in posts elsewhere I have this input.
My son started A&P School four quarters ago at the local community College. He is 43 years old so he may effectively be able to work another 20 years if he follows my pattern. He is doing well in class, he is at the top of the class and has made the Dean’s list all of the last three quarters. Before starting school he had assisted me in rebuilding wings and doing annuals, oil changes and other squawks. I like having him help because he has a good mechanical back ground. I have someone I trust to look over my work. As he has gained more experience he has helped some of my airplane customers who need assistance and not necessarily an A&P - IA’s level (44 yrs) of experience doing corrosion removal and clean up of their airplanes. I supervise the owners and his work. He has worked with me since he was young rebuilding jeeps and troubleshooting problems with the neighbor’s cars and keeping his owns vehicles running. He was working as a fire crew on the forest fire teams out of Helena Montana and lived in Montana up until about thee years ago. He decided to move his family back to Seattle so that his wife could be out here with her mom until she passed a couple of years back. They have been living in our duplex since then.
Most of my customers do owner assisted maintenance which I prefer. I spend a lot of time educating them about their aircraft. A few customers do not perform maintenance on their airplanes and those that do not it is better that they don’t. Of those my son helps me with his assistance is invaluable as a cross check of my work. I charge a lower rate for his hours on the airplanes than I do for my time. He never works alone. I do not think it would be safe. Soon he will have an A&P license and things will change. It is our practice to check each other’s work. I am always impressed by what he finds that I have overlooked or missed. He always chagrined by what I find that he has missed our overlooked. He has a high performance standard. It was fun when I gave him the task of completely manufacturing the last two new skins for a 140A we were rebuilding the wings for. I came home from work that day and they were drilled up de-burred, Cleco’ed into place and ready to rivet on. I had not expected it. He did the riveting I did the bucking. The airplane now fly’s straight and level hands off and stalls straight ahead.
He has been helping me with the assembly of my IO-360. He has helped install cylinders on the O-300 the TSIO 520 in the P210 and now helped do the complete assembly of the IO 360. He just performed checking the dry tappet clearance during assembly and all other aspects of engine assembly. We are having a great time together. He is going to be a great mechanic in fact already is. I have hired many young A&P’s over the years and have found few who compare. Of those that excelled at the job five are now the directors of maintenance at other FBO’s in the local area.
My grand son Jimi (his mothers Spelling) who is also going to the community collage wants to start working with us. His potential if he completes A&P school is to work for another 40 years until age 60 or there bouts. As for myself I will probably die working on airplanes.
There is hope for the future at least in one small area.
Regards,
Jim

[voorheesh]

Thanks of telling us that. A&P School is a real challenge and both of you should be proud. My son (38) has had an A&P for 15 years but all his work was on larger fire fighting aircraft. He became a pilot years back and flies for Cal Fire. He has a lot of free time during the off season and is learning small airplanes with help from a local IA. He does all the work on our A model and is planning to pull up the floor and clean up/IRAN everything down there next winter. Also replace right fuselage skin next to lower engine mount and clean up the landing gear. In our case, I am his assistant. Its fun to see our kids taking over and they are the future of aviation.

[DaveF]

Great story, Jim. Congratulations. You should be proud of your son.

[blueldr]

You have to love GA airplanes and want to work on them to earn a living as an A&P. Airplane owners will very seldom be willing to pay the hourly rate to an A&P that they normally pay the dealer of their automobile for an oil change.
A local doctor with a straight tail turbo Bonanza asked me how much I would charge to do some work on his airplane. He was interested in having a spoiler system installed on the wings. I quoted him "The same price you pay the dealer for work on your wifes Lexus." I happen to know that the Lexus dealers rate is $95/hr.Talk about getting indignant! He was really upset.
I wasn't the least bit interested in the job since I only worked on my own or my friends airplanes anyway, and then it was mostly "Condition" annuals on experimentals that were really done by the owners and just signed off by me. Heaven forbid that I should get MY hands dirty.

[Metal Master]

You have to love GA airplanes and want to work on them to earn a living as an A&P. Airplane owners will very seldom be willing to pay the hourly rate to an A&P that they normally pay the dealer of their automobile for an oil change.
A local doctor with a straight tail turbo Bonanza asked me how much I would charge to do some work on his airplane. He was interested in having a spoiler system installed on the wings. I quoted him "The same price you pay the dealer for work on your wifes Lexus." I happen to know that the Lexus dealers rate is $95/hr.Talk about getting indignant! He was really upset.
I wasn't the least bit interested in the job since I only worked on my own or my friends airplanes anyway, and then it was mostly "Condition" annuals on experimentals that were really done by the owners and just signed off by me. Heaven forbid that I should get MY hands dirty.

Until I went to work for Boeing as a flight crew systems operator in 2006 I had worked as an independent aircraft mechanic for the previous 35 years- when I started out of the Army I was worried that I would have a tough time finding a job. I filed for unemployment. I drew three days and went on my first interview with Robertson Aircraft. They started me off at a higher rate than the beginning A&P mechanics working next door at the FBO. I have never been unemployed or had to look for work. I have always had to turn down job offers. I am fortunate that I had my Army training and that I was medically discharged with diabetes from the Army and got a disability income. It was only about $300 a month but I also got full medical coverage for me and my family. The real trick is having the aptitude for it and the skill. There are people who will not pay my shop rate and so I do not work on their airplanes. I was not looking for a job when Boeing hired me. I was called by phone and asked to come to work for them. It was an agonizing decision to give up working full time for myself.
My son seems to have those skills but I hope he finds a good job with Boeing or the airlines as they have a better retirement plan and it is hard to set aside the $$$ for that with all of the things that come up in life.
Viet-Nam was a crucible for training helicopter mechanics.

[GAHorn]

Anyone who knows anyone twisting wrenches for the military (or CRS or Airlines) needs to strong-arm them into converting their tickets to civilian A&P tickets. It's a real mistake to think you'll never need that specialty again.

[blueldr]

I think you have to love aviation to work at it in almost any job. I started working at Lockheed Aircraft at about age 19 for 53 cents an hour. I used to be a captain flying a DC-6 for a suplemental carrier (World Airways) for $18,38/ block time hour, and loved it. After all, that came to about $18,000/year if you managed to fly the 1,000 hour limit. This was back in about '66. The real airlines made a damn sight more but, at age 44, I was too long in the tooth to hire in with them. It's hard to realize that the USAF, after two periods of enlisted service and two periods of commissioned service, RETIRED ME OUT AT AGE 42!
For crisake, I was just hitting my stride at age 42!
If I could still walk without that damn walker, I'd still be flying.

[lowNslow]

I was at my BMW dealership buying some parts last week and their hourly rate was $198! I thought it funny that my IA doesn't even make that much and he is probably 10x the mechanic those guys are.

At least those Germans give you a great deal on parts

[blueldr]

There is a company on Long Island, NY, that sells BMW parts for less than half the local price. I bought engine mounts for my daughters 750 there.

[blueldr]

Thanks, Aryana.

[170C]

Middle Tennessee State University has a good aviation program here in Murfreesboro. A student can get all their pilot ratings, they have a controller training program and an A&P program. I was visiting with the head of the A&P program back in December when he told me if I knew of anyone wanting to donate $$ to a good cause that they needed a larger hangar for their A&P program. They have approximately 100 students in the program and need expansion room. Apparently there must be a demand for A&P's in the industry. Unfortunately I suspect the demand is for mechanics with corporate, flight schools and airline operations, not the small GA guys like us.

Over my relatively short flying hobby (30 yrs) I have, with a few exceptions, been able to hook up with A&P's who basically worked out of their trucks, came to my hangar and were able to charge a much lower fee than an FBO with the overhead they have. It has been the exception that I have paid over $350 for an annual where no repairs were required (lower yrs ago) and in most cases these were owner assist annuals where I got a small discount for doing some of the grunt work (which I am always happy to do). The local FBO owner at my airport was lamenting recently that he couldn't understand why every aircraft owner at our airport didn't let him do their annuals and/or mechanical work. He really gets upset if someone comes to one of the hangars and does any work. I understand he has to make a living, but his fees, while likely in line with other FBO's, result in many owners going elsewhere for their aircraft work, as I did. I asked him what his fee would likely be to do an annual on a typical C-172 provided no issues came up. HIs answer was $800.00. That is twice what I paid! Of course his price likely included an oil & filter change plus air cleaner filter. Unfortunately if I didn't do my own oil changes, etc. I couldn't afford to keep my plane.

[c170b53]

On our ramp in YVR, the youngest guy is over forty and they've lifted the mandatory 65 retirement age. When someone retires they don't backfill, but they're still looking to boost productivity. Likely Dick their solution will be your walker, motorized of course and fitted a robotic arm for picking up dropped items. As per their suggestion, we will continue to remain focused, if that's possible between siestas

[GAHorn]

.... I asked him what his fee would likely be to do an annual on a typical C-172 provided no issues came up. HIs answer was $800.00. That is twice what I paid! ....

Yikes! Why...that's almost $67 per month!

(I'll bet you pay more than that for the TV cable.)

[edbooth]

Like Frank, I have done all of the grunt work on the plane since day one, finally getting my A&P back in 85. IA's working with me have typically charged from 200 to 400 for the sign off. An inspection on a 170 generally only takes about an hour to an hour and a half for the IA plus what time it takes for AD research on the airframe and appliances..which usually takes less and less time as he becomes familiar with the plane. He does have time tied up in his experience, training and cost of the AD data base and insurance, so I think the charges are not unreasonable. The real time eater is opening up the airframe, cleaning, inspecting, lubricating..etc and the putting it all back together. I find this usually takes me two good days minimum if I don't find anything squirrelly and who knows how much longer if I do find something. So in reality, Ya really can't put a number on an annual inspection until it is complete if someone else is doing the work. For just the inspection with no other work performed, 800.00 is a little steep.

[GAHorn]

It takes between 16 and 20 hours to properly perform an INSPECTION ONLY (which does include cleaning, inspection, and lubrication of controls, wheels, brakes, bearings, compression checks and spark plug/magneto service.) At a reasonable $45/hr shop rate that comes to $900. If the owner participates, then half shop rate is reasonable (IMO) since the owner takes the position of one worker, and that is about $400 if the owner supplies all materials such as oil, grease, cleaner, filters, etc. Let's see...that's about $50 a month for the year?

Each person must determine what they feel is reasonable, but my listing above is an attempt to depict what is reasonable. Most folks may not like what the car dealership charges but the fact is the dealership must have on-hand fairly sophisticated test equipment and a large support organization and still comply with local OSHA etc.. The car dealer certainly has less exposure to possible catastrophe than the typical one-man airplane IA, and the car dealer has a larger organization to spread that risk to, and likely has better support from the OEM and those liability issues.

God Bless the local A&P/IA who is conscientious, honest, equipped, (how many times has he loaned you tools you couldn't afford/justify?) likely under-paid, and available.