The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

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c170b53
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by c170b53 »

On our ramp in YVR, the youngest guy is over forty and they've lifted the mandatory 65 retirement age. When someone retires they don't backfill, but they're still looking to boost productivity. Likely Dick their solution will be your walker, motorized of course and fitted a robotic arm for picking up dropped items. As per their suggestion, we will continue to remain focused, if that's possible between siestas :D
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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GAHorn
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by GAHorn »

170C wrote:.... I asked him what his fee would likely be to do an annual on a typical C-172 provided no issues came up. HIs answer was $800.00. That is twice what I paid! ....
Yikes! Why...that's almost $67 per month! :wink:

(I'll bet you pay more than that for the TV cable.)
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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edbooth
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by edbooth »

Like Frank, I have done all of the grunt work on the plane since day one, finally getting my A&P back in 85. IA's working with me have typically charged from 200 to 400 for the sign off. An inspection on a 170 generally only takes about an hour to an hour and a half for the IA plus what time it takes for AD research on the airframe and appliances..which usually takes less and less time as he becomes familiar with the plane. He does have time tied up in his experience, training and cost of the AD data base and insurance, so I think the charges are not unreasonable. The real time eater is opening up the airframe, cleaning, inspecting, lubricating..etc and the putting it all back together. I find this usually takes me two good days minimum if I don't find anything squirrelly and who knows how much longer if I do find something. So in reality, Ya really can't put a number on an annual inspection until it is complete if someone else is doing the work. For just the inspection with no other work performed, 800.00 is a little steep.
Ed Booth, 170-B and RV-7 Driver
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GAHorn
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by GAHorn »

It takes between 16 and 20 hours to properly perform an INSPECTION ONLY (which does include cleaning, inspection, and lubrication of controls, wheels, brakes, bearings, compression checks and spark plug/magneto service.) At a reasonable $45/hr shop rate that comes to $900. If the owner participates, then half shop rate is reasonable (IMO) since the owner takes the position of one worker, and that is about $400 if the owner supplies all materials such as oil, grease, cleaner, filters, etc. Let's see...that's about $50 a month for the year?

Each person must determine what they feel is reasonable, but my listing above is an attempt to depict what is reasonable. Most folks may not like what the car dealership charges but the fact is the dealership must have on-hand fairly sophisticated test equipment and a large support organization and still comply with local OSHA etc.. The car dealer certainly has less exposure to possible catastrophe than the typical one-man airplane IA, and the car dealer has a larger organization to spread that risk to, and likely has better support from the OEM and those liability issues.

God Bless the local A&P/IA who is conscientious, honest, equipped, (how many times has he loaned you tools you couldn't afford/justify?) likely under-paid, and available. :!:
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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edbooth
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by edbooth »

gahorn wrote:It takes between 16 and 20 hours to properly perform an INSPECTION ONLY (which does include cleaning, inspection, and lubrication of controls, wheels, brakes, bearings, compression checks and spark plug/magneto service.) At a reasonable $45/hr shop rate that comes to $900. If the owner participates, then half shop rate is reasonable (IMO) since the owner takes the position of one worker, and that is about $400 if the owner supplies all materials such as oil, grease, cleaner, filters, etc. Let's see...that's about $50 a month for the year?

Each person must determine what they feel is reasonable, but my listing above is an attempt to depict what is reasonable. Most folks may not like what the car dealership charges but the fact is the dealership must have on-hand fairly sophisticated test equipment and a large support organization and still comply with local OSHA etc.. The car dealer certainly has less exposure to possible catastrophe than the typical one-man airplane IA, and the car dealer has a larger organization to spread that risk to, and likely has better support from the OEM and those liability issues.

God Bless the local A&P/IA who is conscientious, honest, equipped, (how many times has he loaned you tools you couldn't afford/justify?) likely under-paid, and available. :!:
George, I think The "inspection" does not require the IA to do any work as long as the items are completely opened up for his inspection.
Ed Booth, 170-B and RV-7 Driver
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GAHorn
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by GAHorn »

I agree with you, Ed. I was only trying to describe what casual discussion might attempt to dispense-with as far as actual work accomplished. In the strictest definition this work would all have to be done under the direct supervision of the IA unless the owner was also a certificated A&P. That would imply that the IA was either devoting similar time to the job.... or the job was being performed at the IA's place of business ...if the owner was not certificated. Both those scenarios take real time out of an IA's day.
If an IA is comfortable with a non-certificated owner's servicing activities in the owners own hangar....and the IA merely drops by for a look-see and sign-off... well, that's a different matter. But unless the owner's hangar is located AT the same airport... then the IA can easily still lose several hours even if minimally involved.
It's just an easy, if inadvertent segue' that owners sometimes make, in believing that some guy who didn't actually get dirty, bust a knuckle, and twist a wrench doesn't earn his fee.
Of course, as owners, we all get to choose where we do business, but just how easy is it to find another IA who will happen to agree with the owner who thinks the IA's time is not worth much?


Addendum: I'm reminded of the time I asked an A&P/IA buddy to go look at an airplane with me which was undergoing an annual inspection. I only wanted a second set of eyes to confirm what I already thought I knew about N146YS when I bought it.
I picked Joe up at his house and drove 3 hours to the location where the annual inspection was being performed. It was a fun drive with us drinking coffee and viewing the countryside. We arrived and saw the airplane all torn apart, and took the logbooks to lunch, then returned to the airplane and Joe peeked and pried and looked and asked questions of the IA in-charge... Then Joe and I got back in my car and drove back home.
We arrived at Joe's driveway and I asked him how much I owed him. He said something like "I didn't do much and you bought lunch...."
I asked him how much he charged when he worked on customer's airplanes at the airport shop. (He normally worked as A&P for his bro-in-law) and Joe replied $15/hr. I noted that we'd been gone for 10 hours and asked him how $150 sounded, and he said "Fine, but it's too much".
I wrote the check for double that and felt very good about the incredible depth of experience Joe contributed to the day.

(Joe had been a WW-2 Army Air Corp mechanic at training bases, then did another 2 years in the Navy maintaining Martin and Consolidated PBY's as well as PBY-4s in the So. Pacific. How did an Army mechanic become a Navy mechanic?
He was court martialed because of a fight he had with an Ensign and his punishment was 2 years in prison.
He had been sent overseas to accomplish an extra-ordinary repair on a General's airplane (because they knew of his good talent and the General wanted the best) and when he returned to the US on a ship he had been awake for 45 hours. He fell into a convenient bunk at the Navy base at which he'd arrived and in the middle of his nap an Ensign came busting into the barrack and kicked his bed demanding to know why he was sleeping in the middle of the day.
So, in Joe's own words, ..." Half asleep....I picked him up and threw him out through an open window beside the bunk."

I said, and THAT got you court-martialed?", I asked?

"It was a third story window.", he said.

His 2 years in a military prison lasted 24 hours... until a good friend of his, an officer in the Navy who knew Joe's work from their high-school days, saw the report and asked Joe if he'd rather sit in jail or work on airplanes, and with Joe's grateful response, had the prison time transferred to a So. Pacific aircraft maintenance depot.
When Joe finished his 2 years in the Navy, he returned to San Diego and, as happenchance would have it, his discharge papers were being handed to him by the same ensign (now a Captain) he'd formerly thrown out the window. The captain dressed Joe down for wearing an outdated uniform (the Navy had just changed from brown to whites and since Joe was overseas and just-returned he hadn't yet been issued the new uniform, seeing as how he was being discharged.)
I understand there were a few choice words exchanged but Joe was now a civilian and he pretty much said whatever he felt. He walked over behind the captain's desk and slid the window open... and the captain handed Joe his discharge papers. :lol:

I believe he told it exactly as it happened because Joe was actually a very quiet fellow, not known for exaggeration.

In my opinion, Joe Tomme was an incredible asset to my aircraft mx tasks for the next ten years. We lost Joe two years ago, half blind due to stroke and old age. (The last years of his life he could only see the right-half out of each eye due to that stroke.) The last thing he did was rebuild my magnetos on a desk in the nursing home.
Joe was always underpaid.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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edbooth
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by edbooth »

gahorn wrote:I agree with you, Ed. I was only trying to describe what casual discussion might attempt to dispense-with as far as actual work accomplished. In the strictest definition this work would all have to be done under the direct supervision of the IA unless the owner was also a certificated A&P. That would imply that the IA was either devoting similar time to the job.... or the job was being performed at the IA's place of business ...if the owner was not certificated. Both those scenarios take real time out of an IA's day.
If an IA is comfortable with a non-certificated owner's servicing activities in the owners own hangar....and the IA merely drops by for a look-see and sign-off... well, that's a different matter. But unless the owner's hangar is located AT the same airport... then the IA can easily still lose several hours even if minimally involved.
It's just an easy, if inadvertent segue' that owners sometimes make, in believing that some guy who didn't actually get dirty, bust a knuckle, and twist a wrench doesn't earn his fee.
Of course, as owners, we all get to choose where we do business, but just how easy is it to find another IA who will happen to agree with the owner who thinks the IA's time is not worth much?


Addendum: I'm reminded of the time I asked an A&P/IA buddy to go look at an airplane with me which was undergoing an annual inspection. I only wanted a second set of eyes to confirm what I already thought I knew about N146YS when I bought it.
I picked Joe up at his house and drove 3 hours to the location where the annual inspection was being performed. It was a fun drive with us drinking coffee and viewing the countryside. We arrived and saw the airplane all torn apart, and took the logbooks to lunch, then returned to the airplane and Joe peeked and pried and looked and asked questions of the IA in-charge... Then Joe and I got back in my car and drove back home.
We arrived at Joe's driveway and I asked him how much I owed him. He said something like "I didn't do much and you bought lunch...."
I asked him how much he charged when he worked on customer's airplanes at the airport shop. (He normally worked as A&P for his bro-in-law) and Joe replied $15/hr. I noted that we'd been gone for 10 hours and asked him how $150 sounded, and he said "Fine, but it's too much".
I wrote the check for double that and felt very good about the incredible depth of experience Joe contributed to the day.

(Joe had been a WW-2 Army Air Corp mechanic at training bases, then did another 2 years in the Navy maintaining Martin and Consolidated PBY's as well as PBY-4s in the So. Pacific. How did an Army mechanic become a Navy mechanic?
He was court martialed because of a fight he had with an Ensign and his punishment was 2 years in prison.
He had been sent overseas to accomplish an extra-ordinary repair on a General's airplane (because they knew of his good talent and the General wanted the best) and when he returned to the US on a ship he had been awake for 45 hours. He fell into a convenient bunk at the Navy base at which he'd arrived and in the middle of his nap an Ensign came busting into the barrack and kicked his bed demanding to know why he was sleeping in the middle of the day.
So, in Joe's own words, ..." Half asleep....I picked him up and threw him out through an open window beside the bunk."

I said, and THAT got you court-martialed?", I asked?

"It was a third story window.", he said.

His 2 years in a military prison lasted 24 hours... until a good friend of his, an officer in the Navy who knew Joe's work from their high-school days, saw the report and asked Joe if he'd rather sit in jail or work on airplanes, and with Joe's grateful response, had the prison time transferred to a So. Pacific aircraft maintenance depot.
When Joe finished his 2 years in the Navy, he returned to San Diego and, as happenchance would have it, his discharge papers were being handed to him by the same ensign (now a Captain) he'd formerly thrown out the window. The captain dressed Joe down for wearing an outdated uniform (the Navy had just changed from brown to whites and since Joe was overseas and just-returned he hadn't yet been issued the new uniform, seeing as how he was being discharged.)
I understand there were a few choice words exchanged but Joe was now a civilian and he pretty much said whatever he felt. He walked over behind the captain's desk and slid the window open... and the captain handed Joe his discharge papers. :lol:

I believe he told it exactly as it happened because Joe was actually a very quiet fellow, not known for exaggeration.

In my opinion, Joe Tomme was an incredible asset to my aircraft mx tasks for the next ten years. We lost Joe two years ago, half blind due to stroke and old age. (The last years of his life he could only see the right-half out of each eye due to that stroke.) The last thing he did was rebuild my magnetos on a desk in the nursing home.
Joe was always underpaid.
That's a great story.
Ed Booth, 170-B and RV-7 Driver
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Kyle Wolfe
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by Kyle Wolfe »

I enjoyed that story too, George. It's great (and getting more seldom) to find guys like that.

Frank, I just finished my annual. It was not an owner assisted annual but I stopped in several (OK, it was many) times to check in on stuff. No major squawks. I had new tail leaf springs painted and installed as well as all 3 tires along with a few other minor items.

My local mechanic charged me 16 hours labor. He's pretty particular. For example, he didn't like the slop or play that was in the co-pilot yoke cased by the wearing of the crossbolt on the bottom of the center control column located in the tunnel (sorry I don't have my parts book at home to give you the part #).

I felt I got a more than fair bill while feeling confident that my bird got a good lookin' over.

George's example of $45 per hour is VERY hard to find from anyone doing work these days. As stated here before, get your car worked on or hire an appliance repairman.

Do I wish it cost less? Heck yes. But I feel I got a good value, and can stop by anyday to ask my mechanic questions as well as knowing he'll bend over to help me with stuff.
Kyle
54 B N1932C
57 BMW Isetta
Best original 170B - Dearborn, MI 2005
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wingnut
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by wingnut »

Likely your plumber charges more than $45. Licensed, bonded, insured and such. I remember early on as a member here, I posted a question, asking opinions on your maintenance shop having insurance. It was about a 50/50 split between those that thought it irresponsible, and those that thought it desirable (if the final bill reflected it).
Consider the cost that a business has over/above what an individual has. I would drop it in a heartbeat if I thought it would not cost me a lot of work. And there are other big expenses a business has that individual AP/IA's don't have or need. One of the things I like most about what I do is there is very little peripheral regulations in aircraft maintenance. This requires a great deal of self disipline, but it also allows really good maintenance providers to offer services to you without much $$ burden. It also allows you, pilots and owners, many more choices to include a broader selection of specific services which are priced accordingly. You can choose the $30 AP/IA working of the tailgate of his truck for regular maintenance/inspections, and you can choose the $75 shop for more specialized services. This is capitalism at its finest, and I applaud the powers that be for not regulating it to the point that the average talented mechanic can't afford to be self employed. I've sat a tool box on my tailgate many times. It took that to get here. I miss those simpler times.
Del Lehmann
Mena, Arkansas
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DaveF
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by DaveF »

I once opened my hangar to an itinerant IA to annual a local tied-down-outside 170 that was for sale. He did about two hours of inspection, handed the owner a list of discrepancies, saying "Here, you need to take care of these things", and signed the logbooks. The owner was annoyed that I was suddenly not interested in buying his airplane.

No, I'm very happy to pay my mechanic's bill. He has a large lighted and heated shop, with areas and tools for sheet metal, welding, machine work, painting, electrical, engines, and batteries. He has a desk dedicated to shipping and receiving, and drums for handling waste oil and fuel. He has a whole room full of parts and maintenance manuals, and shelves of oil, filters, lights, and tires. He has an employee who's also an IA who does the most beautiful metal and paint work you've ever seen. He lets me do owner assist. His shop rate is $85 an hour, laughably cheap for what I'm getting. I used to tip him but he told me to stop. He said, "I'm not a charity".
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blueldr
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Re: The future of Aviation and Aircraft Mechanics

Post by blueldr »

If one has an overwhelming desire to be a wrenche bender, become an "Automobile Maintenance Technition" and hire an A&P to work on your airplanes, (plural)
BL
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