ADS-B

[flyboy122]

The STUPID thing about 460 ELTs is..... if they enforce ADS-B ....then the 406 ELTs should be JUNK!
Why?.... because if you're flying along at 1500 ft and smack a radio tower or otherwise go missing.... the ATC computer will have seen you travelling along and come to a STOP!.... so it should be fairly obvious that your LAST WAAS-REPORTED LOCATION......is where your remains ...remain. Doh!
.

That's assuming you are flying in an area with good radar coverage and talking to ATC. Where I live the nearest Class C is 30+ miles away, and I have gone years without talking to them. Sure they may see you pop up and pop off, but did you crash, decide to land in the field behind your house (which I do on occasion), or just fly below their coverage area? Multiply that over dozens of aircraft a day and you'll realize that ADS-B is not a good replacement for an ELT. (Though I bet it will help them find you quicker if someone does initiate a search.)

Response times to 406 elts are literally within minutes. They start calling and they keep calling until they get someone. If not, they initiate a search. We set one off at work once accidentally, and in less than 15 minutes phones starting ringing. In the US the call comes from the Coast Guard, and they already knew the tail number, what type aircraft, what color, general vicinity, and who they were calling. Very impressive.

Really, they should have named them something different because these are so far removed from old ELT's in terms of performance and reliability. Traditional ELT's have a bad reputation that is well earned. Unfortunately that stigma has carried over to the new 406 units.

Sorry for the threadjack.

DEM

[bagarre]

George, don't you mean Class B veil?
And if more and more of you suckers would buy ADS-B out populating the sky I fly in with an ADS-B out signal, then I will also be able to see traffic with my magic ADS-B in box. That is if I even bother to turn it on.

That's not exactly true. You only get real traffic for your aircraft if you have ADS-B OUT. If you only have IN, then you only get to see traffic intended for other aircraft. Traffic is provided for a 15mile radius and +- 3,500 feet for aircraft providing ADS-B OUT. So you will see traffic around THAT aircraft and if you're within 15 miles of that aircraft (or +- 3500 feet) that traffic is relevant to your position.

But, what if you're 14.5 miles from and both heading in the same direction? You will see traffic well behind you but only for a half mile ahead of you. Or what if you're 3,400 feet above or below him? In both cases, the screen can give you a false negative.

I still think the best VFR policy is to look out the window

[voorheesh]

The ADS-B rule does not eliminate the requirement for a transponder including Mode C. The radar system will still operate as a back up system and we will still need transponders. I read that the ADS-B code and transponder codes must be the same. The Avidine Mode S transponder with ADSB out accomplishes both functions and is reported to cost about $5000. It is a slide in replacement for the King KT76-A.

The impact of ADS-B on small general aviation aircraft is that any airspace that currently requires a transponder with Mode C will require ADS-B out after 2020. This is because the US has invested billions of dollars in an upgraded ATC system that will primarily benefit the airline industry. The benefit is that satellite based navigation and position reporting allows IFR separation utilizing a significantly smaller area. Today, a federal airway is 8 miles wide and ATC radar is limited in its ability to provide a controller with precise separation criteria. In tomorrow's world, the aircraft position will be reported using satellite data that is accurate to within a few feet thus allowing aircraft to fly much closer together while still assuring IFR separation. The advantage of on board traffic data in the airline world is that pilots will be provided with highly accurate and real time traffic info which adds an additional layer of safety/situational awareness. If GA flights are going to operate in the same airspace, they will need to have equipment that will work in the new system. Some of you may be familiar with RNP or Required Navigation Performance. This is becoming more common in today's advanced navigation and allows equipped aircraft to fly special, often curved arrival and departure routes reducing delays by allowing more flights to occupy available airspace. This results in fewer delays and more direct routings. Of course you have to pay to play. Equipment is expensive.

What surprises me is the resistance of pilots who you would think might welcome the opportunity to have more control and less restrictions. (I realize GA pilots believe its restrictive but we aren't the only ones using the sky) This is what ADS-B should bring to the table. The whole premise relies on the aircraft's ability to tell the world precisely where it is. This frees up huge amounts of airspace. The real restriction in our aviation system is runway and airport infrastructure. The last airport we built was Denver Intl. Consolidation of the airline industry may help in the interim as airlines fly fewer but fuller flights. Eventually we will need more runways to accommodate growth.

In the meanwhile, GA has a choice: Get set for ADS-B which is going to run about $5000 plus/minus. If we all wait until the last minute, we may save a few bucks but have to get in line for installation. If you don't want to spend the money, you can continue to fly but have to stay away from airspace that currently requires a Xpdr. Mode C veil (30nm radius of Class B primary airport); Class B and Class C Airspace; Class E Airspace above 10,000' MSL with some exceptions; did I miss any? That still leaves a lot of airspace for us to fly in. You can fly a non-electrical system airplane after 2020 and be partially exempt from the rule (cubs, champs, gliders, etc). I have not heard about any ELT changes but I personally believe SPOT should be allowed in lieu of an ELT. Its unlikely that ADS-B technology will offer relief for ELTs.

[krines]

I can understand the change if it only applied to class B space. In my experience based at class C airspace the traffic burden is not that great. My radio is as old as my plane and fails regularly. I am on a mission to keep those controllers up to snuff with their light gun. Have the tower on speed dial. Must admit it can be unnerving at times but never got a red light. Barely have a functioning radio in class C and now I need mode S. The cost to me will be over 10 grand for radio and transponder and then add a 406 plus the annual physical for a special issuance on a kidney stone. Good thing I am a doctor or I could not afford to fly. Oh I forgot about user fees coming down the pike for my class C. Good thing I did not buy a hangar at this airport. Think I will buy a ranch with a strip and go undercover. Should be cheaper in the long run.

[voorheesh]

When I think back on my flying in a 170A and previously an Aeronca 7CCM over the past 16-17 years, I would have needed a Mode C transponder or ADS-B a very small percentage of the time. I can cross the Sierra and Rockies close enough to the terrain, I don't need a transponder. I rarely go to the SF Bay Area unless by motorcycle or Amtrack. I do believe you need a transponder in Class C because those airports are served by airlines and their passengers deserve a higher level of safety. It would not break my heart if I couldn't fly 5 minutes from Fresno Chandler to Fresno Yosemite (a Class C). I did pick my daughter up at Sac Intl the other day so I needed Mode C for that. The GA terminal rampers told me they rarely service planes like ours. So your plan to fly from a ranch strip sounds good to me and that may just be where we are headed for GA in this country. I fly about once/week and I am so thankful and blessed to be able to spend a few minutes over our beautiful Central Valley or go to the coast in less than an hour. I can still do it for about $50/hour in gas and the rest of it (hangar, insurance, annual) runs less than $4000/year or $330/month. Thats doable even in retirement and even after the ADS-B rule kicks in.

[GAHorn]

Thanks, Bruce, I meant MODE C veil...not Class C. (I'll edit that post)
Bruce, your ADS-B IN device will not help you see other aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped. Otherwise you must be in an ATC radar re-broadcast area like a big airport (mode C veil) area. Even so, you will only see transponder-equipped aircraft within a "hockey puck" of your airplane.

The STUPID thing about 460 ELTs is..... if they enforce ADS-B ....then the 406 ELTs should be JUNK!
Why?.... because if you're flying along at 1500 ft and smack a radio tower or otherwise go missing.... the ATC computer will have seen you travelling along and come to a STOP!.... so it should be fairly obvious that your LAST WAAS-REPORTED LOCATION......is where your remains ...remain. Doh!
.

That's assuming you are flying in an area with good radar coverage and talking to ATC. ...

Not correct. With ADS-B OUT .... no radar is required at all for ATC to see you. That's the POINT of ADS-B.
Therefore, if ATC computers are simply programmed to notice when an airplane fails to complete a flight due to sudden-stoppage.... No ELT should be necessary.
Sooo,.... if full ADS-B is going to be the thing of the future...then they should make it as useful as possible and dump the ELT requirements for aircraft so-equipped.

Harlow, the problem I'm having with this is that as a taxpayer I am paying for the airway system and should have access to it without having to constantly upgrade to make ATC jobs easier. A farmer can still ride his horse to town without an airbag or seatbelt.
The ever-increasing levels of "security" and "control" are beginning to appear unconstitutional.
The fact that an ordinary car driver can drive up to the airport terminal and drop off a passenger.... should be just as easy for a private airplane owner to be able to taxi up to a terminal gate to do the same.... but that is not allowed these days, and it's gov't over-reach... I guarantee you that fewer terrorists drive pvt airplanes than cars. At the AUS airport we must land at an FBO, pay a ramp fee, hire a taxi or other mode and drive to the public side of the terminal, all of which consumes about 45 mins to an hour just to get a family member to the airline. We used to be able to taxi up to a GA gate and park for 30 mins to get the pax into the terminal (which had a security lock on the GA access-door, the code provided by an intercom after identification is provided.)

Anyway, back to ADS-B: The point I'm attempting to make is that ADS-B is not necessary where radar already exists, therefore general aviation should not be forced to install equipment only a minority might occasionally use. Most of us have no intention of going to the big airport, or if we do, it would only occur once a year and our airplanes already comply with the ATC radar at those fields, so we're not a traffic hazard for ATC or to the TCAS equipped airlines. IT'S OVER-REACH! Big time.

[voorheesh]

I am not the expert on this but I have been "trained" or have "drunk the kool aid" if you will. We are told that NextGen (the FAA name for the ADS-B System) is a comprehensive air traffic control system that is more precise, more reliable, and is necessary to keep up with anticipated growth in aviation. While it will replace VORs and radar, those will be maintained on a reduced level as a back up in case there is interruption to satellite coverage. You're right, ADSB has nothing to do with radar. Its a relay system that sends chunks of information from your plane to a ground station which then relays it to ATC and other planes equipped to receive it. The information is your exact position, altitude, velocity (speed/direction) updated a huge number of times per second. The system is able to compress the data into a signal that becomes part of an unbelievably vast and fast network which is our "new ATC system". Its a whole lot more than a new "gizmo" that Uncle Sam is forcing us to buy. NextGen is primarily designed for IFR operations and my read of the rule and supporting information in the AIM seems to indicate it will have minimal impact on GA unless we need to operate in areas of high volume IFR traffic. In my case, I think I could do without it but I am budgeting about 5K and plan to replace my aging King KT76A as I mentioned earlier. Its not really bothering me because my airplane is a reliable mode of transportation which I plan to use for a few more years and then turn over to my son who already flies and maintains it. But I could just as easily justify not installing ADS-B because my normal flying routine stays away from the places where it is needed.

After a career of over 40 years in aviation, I believe NextGen is a good investment for our country and it is really inevitable. If you check out the technology that is already in use, the FAA is actually years behind the industry in its ability to handle the volume of traffic that is here. So its kind of "why fight it?" Its technological evolution. The next step is pilotless airliners and drones buzzing around everywhere. Hey Krines, do you have any extra ranch strips up there??

As far as ELTs go, I don't think programming the system to recognize a sudden ADS-B stopping would be a reliable way to identify a downed aircraft. Would we send out a search team each time the signal blinks? Again, I can't see the impact. We already have ELTs and I have not heard of a plan to require the 406. Is there such a plan? My old ELT is probably useless but meets the rule. I make sure I let my family know where I am going and I use the free FAA Flight Plan service for longer cross countries. My glider friends use SPOT which is an amazing system that can literally call your husband or wife on their smart phone and let them know exactly where you are at jus about anytime or anywhere in the world. And thats just a small example of what I'm trying to talk about.

I hear you George, but I think whats happening is bigger than us and there isn't much we can do to stop it.

[GAHorn]

The Fast Response time of the 406 ELTs reported in an earlier post is misleading. That describes a mere phone-call to the registered owner in case the ELT triggers, which is useful for the airplane sitting in the hangar that got bumped by the tow-tug or accidentally activated. It does NOT provide a guarantee of a rapid-response to an actual downed aircraft.

It seems to me that any ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, even those not on a flight plan, would be easily found when the tapes are reviewed. When the airplane is reported over-due.... it's a simple matter to pull the tapes.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Dave and George are correct. If you do not have ADS-B out you will only see the area centered around and activated by the aircraft close to you. I know. Two of my regular flying buddies has ADS-B out right now. When we fly to the same destination they light up the area which we also happen to be in. It is a novelty really and a distraction as my buddies which might be as many as 10 planes from and two the same place are now calling out every bit of traffic they see when they get their head out of the cockpit and every bit of traffic the see on the gizmo no matter whether the traffic will be a consequence for any of us.

My devilish point was I won't need ADS-B out if all the other aircraft, or enough in the sky at any one time to cover the area, has ADS-B out. I'l see the traffic they see since the entire area will be lit by their accumulative puck of lit space.

[voorheesh]

I am missing the message here. I think Bruce is assuming some will buy ADS-B in but not ADS-B out. I have never heard of that concept. I am probably misunderstanding you. When you say you will "see" traffic are you referring to a service like Traffic Information Service (TIS)? See AIM 4-5-6 for TIS and 4-5-7 for ADS-B. ADS-B is being gradually introduced and its not fully available yet. In 2020, the minimum requirement for airspace that currently requires a transponder will be ADS-B out. This is a technology that will be combined with a transponder code and utilize technology similar to a transponder. 1090ES Extended Squitter or UAT. The UAT will be for below 18000' and ES will work at all altitudes. With ADS-B out only, you don't see anything. If you equip with ADS-B in, you will have the capability of Traffic Information Service similar to TIS and also free flight information such as radar, weather, etc. which is currently called FIS. Up until recently, general aviation pilots had to pay a service to get that in their advanced cockpit aircraft such as Cirrus. TIS and FIS are already available in select areas to equipped aircraft and they are not dependent on ADS-B. TIS only depicts traffic that is visible on the ATC ground facility that is relaying it. That means that there is a probability of a target that will not be displayed on a TIS display. Remember, this is not TCAS which interrogates transponders of nearby aircraft. TIS depends on a ground facility. By January 2020, the FAA plans to have all airspace covered by ADS-B and their ATC surveillance will be based on that technology. Radar will still be used to some extent as will transponders. I can't explain this stuff in a post and I urge any of you who are interested to read the AIM which contains detailed information on the subject. AOPA has also done a really good job of explaining it although, as some have mentioned, they are biassed in favor of the system.

So Bruce, I don't have a clue what you are trying to say here. If you have time, could you give us some more info?

Regarding ELTs and the use of ATC radar to find missing aircraft, that already happens. A missing aircraft generates an Alert Notice or ALNOT. It can come from ATC, FSS, Law Enforcement or a private citizen reporting an overdue aircraft. When we receive an ALNOT, one of the steps is to review radar data over the last known route/position to look for a track the disappears. The CAP is usually the organization who coordinates this process. I have personally participated in investigations where we found wreckage using ATC data and we found it pretty quickly, even using radar because the ATC data processing technology can very accurately report the information. I don't like to be gruesome, but we had one missing aircraft that turned out to be a inflight break up (Cessna 210/WX) and the computer generated report showed very accurately where the transponder data ended and it also depicted primary returns for the wreckage falling to earth, date and timestamped. When this info was provided to CHP, their helicopter found the accident site. Old ELTs broadcast a limited signal on 121.5 and rely on a receiver tuned to that frequency line of site. The 406 technology is much better because it transmits a GPS location to a satellite monitored by search and rescue organizations. I deal with ATC (Western Service Area) on a regular basis and I will bring this question (ADS-B to locate downed aircraft) up at our meeting in LA tomorrow. Ill let you know what their answer is on this good question.

[juredd1]

Your knowledge level on this subject is way beyond mine so please over look my stupidity in these questions.

The ADS-B system is a device that is in your aircraft and that device talks to a Satellite to get your GPS location and then the system in your plane reports to a ground based system which transmits to ATC (and direct to other aircraft if so equipped) your location, right? I haven't researched the frequency of transmissions to know the effective range from the plane to ground based systems but I suspect this thing is supposed to work over very long distances. Such as when your flying in the valley and there are 2000ft. (where I live or higher out west) mountains on both sides of you to block any out bound signals from your plane to the ground station.

From what I can gather from the ADS coverage map there are only two in the whole state of Arkansas and it still shows all of the state in some shade of pink. I can't pick up a radio station in my car from Springdale, Arkansas which is where one of the ground stations shows to be setting and that radio station is likely a 50,000 to a 100,000 watt station. My radio in my car is a receiver and the ADS unit in my plane is a transmitter right and I'm supposed to be able to transmitter my location to that tower a 60-100 miles away while I'm surrounded by mountains. I believe in flying low enough to be able to tell what the scenery below me is not just be able to tell if it's blue or green.

What am I missing that would lead me to believe this is going to work well enough to have someone find me if I crash, likely a lot.

More towers to come I am sure but that system called cellular service has a lot of towers and we all know how consistent that is.

Not trying to shot it down just trying to understand it better.

Justin

[sfarringer]

I have ADS-B IN in my 170, displaying on my iFly 720 non-certified GPS.

I got it so that I can have the FIS-B weather information when I travel.
I am glad for the information it provides.

Every once in awhile traffic shows up on it. I guess that I am glad for the extra traffic information, but so far it has not proved to be very useful, because I know that I cannot trust it to be complete, and sometimes it continuously alerts me of my own airplane's presence.

Perhaps there is a technical reason why the FAA rations out the traffic information to only the immediate vicinity of an ADS-B out equipped aircraft.
But it seems irrational for an a government agency whose mission is supposed to be SAFETY, to ration out information only to the few who have paid the bribe.

I suppose that in the end I will need to equip my 1948 airplane, in order to keep it useful for traveling.

I suppose that eventually my old Narco transponder with a cavity tube will quit, and I will probably replace it with a transponder that can fit in with the ADS-B OUT system.
But that is only part of the expense. I also will need a certified WAAS GPS to connect to it. And that is something that I really do not need in my 170 for any other purpose. I have been able to navigate to Labrador, to the Turks and Caicos, and all over the lower 48 states without a certified WAAS GPS. Never been IN class B airspace, but certainly have been under and over it a number of times. But now Uncle Sam needs to know where my old, slow airplane is within a few feet. I don't really care that Uncle Sam knows where my airplane is. But I absolutely will not pay the $7000 to $10,000 out of my pocket to equip my airplane with ADS-B out until I find it necessary.

[flyboy122]

The Fast Response time of the 406 ELTs reported in an earlier post is misleading. That describes a mere phone-call to the registered owner in case the ELT triggers, which is useful for the airplane sitting in the hangar that got bumped by the tow-tug or accidentally activated. It does NOT provide a guarantee of a rapid-response to an actual downed aircraft.

It seems to me that any ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, even those not on a flight plan, would be easily found when the tapes are reviewed. When the airplane is reported over-due.... it's a simple matter to pull the tapes.

No, it is not misleading. Trigger one and see for yourself (we did...accidentally, but might as well learn from it). They really do call that fast. Whether you bump it in the hanger or crash into a swamp, the ELT triggers an alert and the Coasties start calling. They don't call the registered owner, they call whoever is on a list that you give them when you register the ELT with NOAA. That list can have 1 number or a dozen. They keep calling down the list until they get an answer. If they don't get an answer along the lines of "oops, we accidentally bumped 'er", or they don't get an answer at all, they start a search, NOW. Not so many minutes after you flight plan closes (real helpful when you crash 10 minutes into a 3 hour flight), not when you don't show up for dinner, and not when someone notices your hanger open for 3 days.

No, it is not instant. But it is orders of magnitude faster than the way we used to do it.

DEM

[GAHorn]

...No, it is not misleading. ...No, it is not instant. But it is orders of magnitude faster than the way we used to do it.

DEM

It is misleading because their immediate response is only a telephone-call... it is NOT the actual sighting/rescue of the airplane/occupants.

Your knowledge level on this subject is way beyond mine so please over look my stupidity in these questions....More towers to come I am sure but that system called cellular service has a lot of towers and we all know how consistent that is.

Not trying to shot it down just trying to understand it better.

Justin

The ADS-B system WILL have a cellular-phone type system of towers....to gather the transmitted data from aircraft and supply it to ATC.

A simple and graphic description of the entire ADS-B system can be found here: http://adsbuniversity.com/ads-b-university

[flyboy122]

...No, it is not misleading. ...No, it is not instant. But it is orders of magnitude faster than the way we used to do it.

DEM

It is misleading because their immediate response is only a telephone-call... it is NOT the actual sighting/rescue of the airplane/occupants.

Gahorn, with all due respect I don't quite understand where you are coming from here? The phone call is Step 1 in the process, followed by appropriate search and rescue measures. It's not like they call you on the phone asap and then kick back and twiddle their thumbs for 3 hours. The phone call is a vital first step in either expediting the search ("Yes my husband was flying up to Smith Lake, go find him!") or alleviating the search ("Oops, dropped it during annual inspection. Thanks for the heads up.") And no matter what the response, it is orders of magnitude faster than the way we used to do it.

If you don't want to buy a 406 ELT, don't. It's your money and your hiney. But don't try to justify it by saying they don't work. If it makes you feel any better, I have a hard time swallowing airframe parachutes. Seems overkill to me. But the guys who have rode one down are believers! And the numbers are there....they work. Doesn't mean I'll buy one, but I'm not gonna tell someone else don't waste their money.

DEM