ADS-B

A place to relax and discuss flying topics.

Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher

james_layman
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:15 pm

ADS-B

Post by james_layman »

Has anyone given any thought to ADS-B out compliance for our 170s?
bagarre
Posts: 2615
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:35 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by bagarre »

It's not required until 2020 which is about 7 or 8 iPhone versions from now.
And that's not counting the unknown number of delays they will add to the deadline.

I wouldn't spend a penny on ADSB until the year before it's absolutely necessary as the tech will only get cheaper and cheaper.
User avatar
KS170A
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 4:31 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by KS170A »

bagarre wrote:It's not required until 2020 which is about 7 or 8 iPhone versions from now.
And that's not counting the unknown number of delays they will add to the deadline.

I wouldn't spend a penny on ADSB until the year before it's absolutely necessary as the tech will only get cheaper and cheaper.
^^^ This, although I might add I am considering one of those ADS-B receivers that links to iPhone/iPad for free in-cockpit weather (free as in no subscription required after the initial acquisition cost). XM WX is just too pricey for the little amount I'd use it.
--Josh
1950 170A
n3833v
Posts: 857
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 6:02 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by n3833v »

My avionics guy advised me not to purchase until closer time due to the changes they will make. We all need to read the article in AOPA on page 89, Who's seeing whom? It will open your eyes as to how effective the ADS-B is at this time. Link follows,
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All- ... ology.aspx

John
John Hess
Past President 2018-2021
President 2016-2018, TIC170A
Vice President 2014-2016, TIC170A
Director 2005-2014, TIC170A
N3833V Flying for Fun
'67 XLH 900 Harley Sportster
EAA Chapter 390 Pres since 2006
K3KNT
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by GAHorn »

The problem might be getting an installation completed during the last minute "rush".
Freeflight is one of the companies who helped develop the concept and is offering a $1500 discount (reg price $5.5K)until the end of this year (2014) for a system compatible with todays existing txdrs. http://www.freeflightsystems.com/news/p ... ransceiver

I do have to admit that I can't see how the average pleasure operator can afford the entrance cost to the system, however, unless there's some drastic drop in pricing. Even the minimum "out" capability is a $5K plus installation entrance cost. An owner who flies his little C-150 into the Mode C veil will have more invested in the ADS-B than the value of the airplane.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
N4281V
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 2:04 am

Re: ADS-B

Post by N4281V »

I took my plane for its transponder check the other day and asked for a quote on what it would take for ADS-B compliance. I currently have a King KT76A transponder and a TransCal encoder. Both have worked perfectly since I bought the plane in 1996. The quote was for a FreeFlight "ranger" UAT box and a new encoder (because mine won't talk to the UAT box as it needs digital input)....installed it came to roughly $7k.

Currently my plan is to wait four years and see what's available then and have the work done when the transponder check is due. Hopefully there will be more choices and will drive the prices down some.
Ann W.
1948 Cessna 170
N4281V (sn 18699 - wings) & the former N4147V (sn 18479 - fuselage)
voorheesh
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:22 am

Re: ADS-B

Post by voorheesh »

Have you checked out the Avidine AXP340 Mode S Transponder with ADS-B out? It is a slide in replacement for the King 76-A Xpdr. I have heard this sells for under $5000. More for installation/antenna/etc. No hurry of course.
bagarre
Posts: 2615
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:35 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by bagarre »

The closer we get to the deadline, the cheaper the units will be.
james_layman
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:15 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by james_layman »

$5-7000 may just be the death to many of us with older aircraft or we will become experts at avoiding controlled airspace.
User avatar
Ryan Smith
Posts: 1210
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:26 am

Re: ADS-B

Post by Ryan Smith »

gahorn wrote:The problem might be getting an installation completed during the last minute "rush".
Freeflight is one of the companies who helped develop the concept and is offering a $1500 discount (reg price $5.5K)until the end of this year (2014) for a system compatible with todays existing txdrs. http://www.freeflightsystems.com/news/p ... ransceiver

I do have to admit that I can't see how the average pleasure operator can afford the entrance cost to the system, however, unless there's some drastic drop in pricing. Even the minimum "out" capability is a $5K plus installation entrance cost. An owner who flies his little C-150 into the Class C veil will have more invested in the ADS-B than the value of the airplane.
George,

Indulge me a bit if you will. On the FreeFlight website, I see the that there is the RANGR 978 system, that has an optional TC-978 control head. Am I to understand that the RANGR system will work in conjunction with, say, a Garmin GTX-327? Does this new ADS-B encoder also support Mode C encoding, or will one end up with two separate boxes feeding one unit, or are they two separate things entirely? Will Mode C encoding go away?

My knowledge of ADS-B is limited, admittedly, but I did dress myself this morning, so I figure I could give learning about it a shot.
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by GAHorn »

The Rangr unit claims to work with any current transponder.

Slight-Shift-of-subject:

While pondering this ADS-B thing..... It occurs to me that we might be witnessing another huge gov't over-reach.

Consider this: ADS-B is being touted as the future of ATC because ground-based radar is too expensive to install/maintain.... and aviation is expected to grow during the next 20-30 year so significantly... that the cost will be astronomical to provide radar coverage for traffic seperation. Therefore, ADS-B was tried in Alaska to see if aircraft can be seen/controlled outside radar coverage and the system demonstrated a certain amount of capability.

ADS-B IN is being promoted in order to addict the GA public with the idea of free weather (something they can already obtain on any smartphone) and traffic ...(with caveat being that only ADS-B OUT aircraft and aircraft within ATC radar coverage will be depicted to the ADS-B IN equipped aircraft. It won't do diddely-squat for even an ADS-B IN aircraft if that aircraft is not within the range of ATC radar!
This ADS-B IN is relatively cheap (less than $1K) and so the authorities believe we'll all go for it....and by that measure they believe fewer people will complain about this new equipment requirement since they have already "bought into" the system and drunk the Kool-Aid.

To force compliance, a new rule is being made: Without ADS-B OUT.... one will not be allowed to operate within the Mode-C veil.... not even beneath it!

Now it seems to me that this is a huge B.S.

Why? Well, for one thing, WHY...should it be illegal to operate beneath Mode C under the veil.... since Mode C airspace HAS RADAR coverage? In other words, any aircraft operating beneath the veil will already be visible both to ATC ...AND also to ADS-B IN aircraft. Those non-equipped aircraft will already be outside the important airspace...and will not pose any threat to primary airspace users! It is an onerous rule to require those aircraft to be ADS-
B OUT equipped!

Non OUT equipped aircraft will also not be allowed above 10,000 MSL! WHY ...did they choose THAT altitude? I suspect in order to make it troublesome not to be ADS-B OUT equipped. Why didn't they make the rule FL180? or at the very least 14,500...??? That way the average small airplane operator could still operate without having to shell out $7K or more! After-all.... in what area does radar not exist above those altitudes? Huh?
Why don't they simply move the transition level down to 15,000' and require that all class A airspace require ADS-B??
I think I know that answer too... It's because the BIG BOYS don't mind ADS-B. The rest of the world is doing it above the transition levels...WHY NOT THE USA where General Aviation is truly popular??? :evil:

Meanwhile, the sport-flyers groups flying around in lawn-chair ultralights and J-3 cubs will not be ADS-B OUT equipped and will still be invisible below 10K to all the folks who've wasted their money on ADS-B thinking they no longer have to look outside the window! :x

AOPA has drunk the Kool-Aid. So has EAA. Those groups no longer represent the little-guy...they are now advertising outlets for those selling ADS-B and other aviation products. AOPA sells insurance, headsets, avionics, ...the list goes on. In fact, they've irritated the insurance folks by going into competition with them. Instead of going along with ADS-B ... AOPA should be fighting this every step of the way for small airplane owners who have no interest in landing at Washington Dulles, DFW, IAH, JFK, O'Hare and Hartsfield.... but ARE wishing to use DWH, Conroe, Galveston, LInden, and the thousands of other small fields under Mode C veil.

What say you guys?
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
sfarringer
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:49 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by sfarringer »

gahorn wrote: What say you guys?
Hey George, when you're right, you're right. :wink:
Ragwing S/N 18073
flyboy122
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:30 am

Re: ADS-B

Post by flyboy122 »

I remember when I was a kid my Dad shooting his mouth off at fly-ins about how he wasn't gonna buy an altitude encoder until "They hold me up against the wall with a shotgun and say 'Martin get an encoder!'" Then a year or two later the encoder went in (sans shotgun), and a few airplanes later we don't even think twice about. Nobody does. At some point you have to bite the bullet and take a step forward.

I imagine ADS-B will be the same way. Some will embrace it, some will fight it, but 10 or 15 years later everyone will have it and pilots won't think twice about it other than to wax nostalgically about the days before ADS-B.

Me, I'm waiting until 2020. Already a few companies have come out with combo ADS-B/GPS add ons to stand mode C boxes, and the closer we get the more there will be and that means the cheaper they'll get. And if not, I don't fly in Class C much anyway.

What I am investing in right now is a 406mhz ELT. Those suckers work! And they are now down in the $500-$600 range. That's cheap for the peace of mind. AOPA and EAA are fighting this mandate tooth and nail, and I can't understand why.

DEM
User avatar
GAHorn
Posts: 20967
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 pm

Re: ADS-B

Post by GAHorn »

The STUPID thing about 460 ELTs is..... if they enforce ADS-B ....then the 406 ELTs should be JUNK!
Why?.... because if you're flying along at 1500 ft and smack a radio tower or otherwise go missing.... the ATC computer will have seen you travelling along and come to a STOP!.... so it should be fairly obvious that your LAST WAAS-REPORTED LOCATION......is where your remains ...remain. Doh!

If they truly want me to buy-in to ADS-B...then they need to re-think this whole thing, offer a gov't grant (some of the money they'll be saving on radar/maintenance , and won't have to buy out of the fuel-excise-tax funds should be REFUNDED TO ME in a GRANT to buy into ADS-B!) THEN....!!! I might see some real incentive.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
User avatar
Bruce Fenstermacher
Posts: 10313
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am

Re: ADS-B

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

George, don't you mean Class B veil?

I personally never intend to buy ADS-B out. I did by a handheld ADS-B in and if you notice have offered it for sale. I've actually not turned it on since last convention though I probably will one again going to this years convention. Hope it works this year. And that is the funny thing. My Ipad mini using the data mode (not legal while in the air I know) picked up and displayed current wx the entire trip. The data over the mobile connection was so good and so consistent I never realized the ADS-B was not working at all.

And if more and more of you suckers would buy ADS-B out populating the sky I fly in with an ADS-B out signal, then I will also be able to see traffic with my magic ADS-B in box. That is if I even bother to turn it on.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!

Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Post Reply