Installing A TCM IO360

[bagarre]

Thanks!
Mine is set up with the intake reversed so that should help to keep the controls in the original locations.
I've als budgeted in for the secon (expensive) all in one gauge that should simplify things. Makes long range tanks with sending units are attractive too.

One nice thing about a delayed project is that I have more time to save money.

[blueldr]

The TCM IO-360 engine that I installed did not, acclording to TCM in Mobile, have any internal drive gears to the tach drive. I was too dumb to ask permission and just went ahead and installed a horizon tach, the only alternayive I could find. I really did not care for that tachometer in that it had an unchangeable resolution of ONE, which made the fourth digit constantly rollong.

[Metal Master]

The TCM IO-360 engine that I installed did not, according to TCM in Mobile, have any internal drive gears to the tach drive. I was too dumb to ask permission and just went ahead and installed a horizon tach, the only alternative instrument I could find. I really did not care for that tachometer in that it had an unchangeable resolution of ONE, which made the fourth digit constantly rollong.

I do not like it either but the option of installing the mechanical tach drive gears was almost as much as buying the Electronics International instrument which is what I would like to do. Forgive the edit.
Thanks Dick Tail wheel Tommy say's Hi !

[Metal Master]

As of yesterday Tuesday January 5th 2016 at 2:14 pacific standard time I am calling the mechanical part of the installation of a TCM IO-360 in N1208D done. I put the last screw in the interior and vacuumed the carpet. Screwed the sun visors back in. My Friend and Seneca owner Tom came down Sunday in the freezing cold and snow and cleaned out the belly and vacuumed the area under the rudder pedals.
Things left to be done are:
• Put gas in it. I doubt I have enough in the tanks to make it to the gas pumps.
• Weight the airplane and calculate the new CG.
• Fill out the STC paper work - Form 337 and log entry.
• Get the coordinated field approval from the FAA.
• Get my 3rd class medical back from the FAA medical branch (special Issuance).
• Get the insurance updated and reactivated for flight. I have had it in a maintenance mode during the mod.
• Test fly the airplane and perform the break-in of the engine.
I had a friend at the FAA call me last night and ask if I was done with the airplane. He said he would check with the ACO today and see how it was going. I told him not to anger them as I have to work with them daily. It would take up several posts for me to describe the number of issues I am currently working with the FAA for Boeing.
Regards,
Jim

[hilltop170]

......................
• Get the coordinated field approval from the FAA.
.......................Jim

Jim-
Just curious, your comment above implies you performed all the work on your plane that requires 337 Field Approval Block 3 sign-offs before they were approved and signed off by the FAA? If that is true, what is your philosophy there, or maybe you have a long-standing working relationship with your inspector who knows your excellent work?

Long ago, I was scolded severely by an FAA Inspector for doing the work before asking for approval because he said it put him in a jamb to approve the modification and that made him mad (which is the last thing I want to do to an inspector I am trying to get an approval from). He told me the Block 3 sign-off is just an approval of the proposed mod and NOT approval of the actual installation of the mod itself, which is the responsibility of the installer who provides their own sign-off on the 337. The point was well taken and I now make it a rule to get all Block 3 approvals signed off before any money is spent or installation work is done, just in case they do not agree with the scope of work and refuse to sign without some change in the scope.

Again, just curious, not trying to get you to divulge any of your trade secrets.

[Metal Master]

......................
• Get the coordinated field approval from the FAA.
.......................Jim

Jim-
Just curious, your comment above implies you performed all the work on your plane that requires 337 Field Approval Block 3 sign-offs before they were approved and signed off by the FAA? If that is true, what is your philosophy there, or maybe you have a long-standing working relationship with your inspector who knows your excellent work?

Long ago, I was scolded severely by an FAA Inspector for doing the work before asking for approval because he said it put him in a jamb to approve the modification and that made him mad (which is the last thing I want to do to an inspector I am trying to get an approval from). He told me the Block 3 sign-off is just an approval of the proposed mod and NOT approval of the actual installation of the mod itself, which is the responsibility of the installer who provides their own sign-off on the 337. The point was well taken and I now make it a rule to get all Block 3 approvals signed off before any money is spent or installation work is done, just in case they do not agree with the scope of work and refuse to sign without some change in the scope.


Again, just curious, not trying to get you to divulge any of your trade secrets.

I do have a long standing association with the FAA. However I would never do the work before giving the FAA a heads up about what I am going to do. I sent them the Form 337 before I ever purchased the instrument. After my avionics inspector reviewed the form 337 and all of the supporting documents including the installation manual and draft copy of the Flight Manual Supplement she determined that it would need to be a coordinated field approval and she talked with the ACO representative. After that she called me back and said they would approve it. With that assurance I went ahead and purchased the instrument which was the only way I could get a draft copy of the 170 STC with the O-300 from the manufacture to use as an additional supporting document. Then I sent it along to the FAA as well. Now they have a copy of the STC installing it in a Cessna 170A with and 0-300 engine and a copy of the STC installing it in an R127K with an IO-360 engine. As well as the operators manual supplement created by the manufacture for my instrument installed in the 170A with an TCM IO-360 and 2800 rpm limitations. I have had the conversation a like you had with your inspector many times about other A&P's and owners. But your philosophy is spot on. I talked with my multiple FAA Representatives today.
We will probably not hang the Experimental ticket on the T-33 on Monday. Due to FAA issues and the latest version of the 8130.2H
We will wait until January 20th to request a experimental ticket for the T-38 or maybe later depending on what happens with the 8130.2H issue that the FAA has.
They will approve my field approval for the Bracket air filter for My IO-360 installation. They will review the paper work next week.
And I should receive the Coordinated field approval for the Electronic tach by the end of this week.
All is happy as well as I can make it

[Ivan Simpson]

How did your 360 conversion work out . I started this conversion about 15 years ago and just finish it. One huge issues was we did about 37 field approvals. I was not willing to accept the modified exhaust that Tom used in his STC. We made a complete dual muffler stainless steel system and went through the approval process with the FAA , very expanse and about 6 years before approval . Still trying to get a gross wt. increase , left and right jump doors and the wing extension mod.
Have done so many mods to the 170 , started with 1953 170B 618 hours TT . With factory float kit. 105 gal. Fuel , center stack radio . Ect . Looking for a way to get approval for a S Tec 50 auto pilot that I have bought for it , and not having a luck on that one .

[Metal Master]

How did your 360 conversion work out . I started this conversion about 15 years ago and just finish it. One huge issues was we did about 37 field approvals. I was not willing to accept the modified exhaust that Tom used in his STC. We made a complete dual muffler stainless steel system and went through the approval process with the FAA , very expanse and about 6 years before approval . Still trying to get a gross wt. increase , left and right jump doors and the wing extension mod.
Have done so many mods to the 170 , started with 1953 170B 618 hours TT . With factory float kit. 105 gal. Fuel , center stack radio . Ect . Looking for a way to get approval for a S Tec 50 auto pilot that I have bought for it , and not having a luck on that one .

I have not gotten to fly it yet. I pick up the scales today to weigh it. We are having a weighing "B” tomorrow at the airport and weighing a couple of airplanes. I Hopefully I will get the field approval for the P-1000 tachometer Today.
I am excited to discover how it will all work out later this month; I started this Mod a year and 1/2 half ago on June 14th 2013. 15 years! on this project would have killed me your perseverance is to be takin in awe.
I have worked out an Excel spread sheet that has a moving bug on a version of the 170A weight and balance graph. It will come in handy visualizing the weight & balance changes as I add, remove and move various things within the airplane.
My philosophy has been to just get the basic mod done and add changes I would like to make, for example the exhaust, landing gear etc., etc. later.
Do you have pictures of your airplane? If I put wing tip extension on the 170A it would not fit in my hangar.

[Metal Master]

Yesterday was get the airplane Weighed Day:
So cutting to the Chase here are the numbers.
Tail Wheel weighed at bolt attaching spring to Scott Tail wheel 84 lbs. @ 241.5 “ inches measured.
Left & Right Main Total 1358 lbs. @22 inches = moment of 29876.
Total Empty Weight: 1442 Moment of 50162 @ 34.79” inches.
Old Empty Weight was 1272.11 @ 38.9 inches - Moment 49485.1.
This shows a weight Gain of 169.89 lbs.
Weight gain was better than I expected. Johneb noted an error in my original post to which I have made a correction here and on my Excel Spread sheet. I am not the person who weighed the airplane last time so I cannot account for errors someone else may have made. Empty Weight CG shifted forward almost 4 inches.
After running various load configurations along the “mission profile” I like to fly I am not displeased with the calculated outcome. I am using 190 lbs. pilot weights for my calculations. Using standard 170 lbs. weight I think is unrealistic.
I have an Excel spread sheet for running Weight & Balance configurations that shows the loaded weight and CG number and also has a Loading Graph that shows where the CG location shifts on the 170A Graph with a Bug. It is fun to play with and gave me some rough idea of where all of this was heading before I completed the Mod.
The FAA has approved all of my documents and all I have to do now is get my insurance out of hanger mode and get my medical back. All of which should happen in the next couple of weeks. No comments about Spinner envy here I do not like this thing but it was all I could find.
If you have never seen how high the tail is in the air when the aircraft is leveled during the weight and balance game you would be surprised. We also weighed my friends Cessna 172 TD which has an O-360 Lyc and Long range tanks along with multiple other STC's. My full fuel load and remaining useful load makes his look terrible. He has the same 2200 Lbs. Gross weight limit. I will leave the rest to your imagination.

[ghostflyer]

This is scary, your aircraft looks very similar to mine at the moment . But I have the Lycoming instead . Regarding the prop spinner. Originally I had a smaller fibre glass spinner and it cracked so a change had to be done . BUT when the new Larger alloy spinner was fitted I got a 3 knot increase in speed and engine cooling was affected. The CHT ,s dropped about 10 degs
The alloy spinner needed polishing as it had a very rough finish on it. So A small fibreglass repair was done on the small spinner and it was refitted. speed was again checked [GPS] and it was down by 3 knots and engine was hotter. When the alloy spinner came back it was refitted and speed was up again by 3 knots and engine cooling was better by 10 degs.

[Metal Master]

This is scary, your aircraft looks very similar to mine at the moment . But I have the Lycoming instead . Regarding the prop spinner. Originally I had a smaller fibre glass spinner and it cracked so a change had to be done . BUT when the new Larger alloy spinner was fitted I got a 3 knot increase in speed and engine cooling was affected. The CHT ,s dropped about 10 degs
The alloy spinner needed polishing as it had a very rough finish on it. So A small fibreglass repair was done on the small spinner and it was refitted. speed was again checked [GPS] and it was down by 3 knots and engine was hotter. When the alloy spinner came back it was refitted and speed was up again by 3 knots and engine cooling was better by 10 degs.

There is a good chance I will never know the difference. But I will take what I can get. There a few guy's who have posted pictures of there bare aluminum 170's and it has given me a moment of pause as I am wondering if it is an earlier picture of my plane. So far it has only been a similarity.
Jim

[bagarre]

that spinner looks really good on a Swift with the 360 conversion.
Not so much on a 170 but not terrible and still better than the pointy HawkXP one IMO

Did you hvae to do anything wiht the boost pump related to throttle position? I think it needs a micro switch and resistor for low throttle or idle but not certain. if so, woudl love to see pics of the setup and any bracketry you had to fab.

congrats on the project! it looks like real clean intallation.

[Metal Master]

Did you hvae to do anything wiht the boost pump related to throttle position? I think it needs a micro switch and resistor for low throttle or idle but not certain. if so, woudl love to see pics of the setup and any bracketry you had to fab.

Yes. The Bracket that came on engine as removed from the Skymaster is the same bracket that the Hawk XP uses. For that matter the micro switch is the same micro switch that came on my engine. However the Sky master switch is used for gear warning. The bracket called off in the R172 Manuals bolts to the flange of the FMU. The information in the latest R172E or R172K maintenance manual shows the wiring diagram as well as in the Rigging procedure in the fuel systems area of the manual. You need a copy of the R172E of K manual really to do this mod. The STC documents describe the alteration required because it changes when you reverse the induction system as you plan to do. The Micro switch and cam have to be alternatively located to reverse the FMU throttle arm. There is also a Cessna service bulletin that discusses this issue that I just down loaded from the web last week. I will have to find it. You will also need three adjustable resistors not Pots. They are ceramic wire wound resistors and are discussed in the Service bulletin along with the bracket required to install them. I will try to take a picture of my arrangement for you next time I am at the Hangar. The resistors were about $100 each X 3. I ended up buying two from Cessna and one new surplus from Preferred Air Parts for about $60. It was the only one they had. These resistors are on most Cessna aircraft that have a electric boost pump but the 28 Volt airplanes have a different resistance value and can not be used. The salvage yards I contacted trying to find them had no stock.
I have an extra Micro switch used I bought that I found in my inventory the other day.
The R172 Manual can be viewed here.
https://www.redskyventures.org/doc/cess ... 9-5-13.pdf

[Metal Master]

Baggare The pictures on Page nine (9) of this Forum post show the Throttle and micro switch installation on the FMU pretty clearly but my induction system is in the normal orientation.

[Metal Master]

Update:
I just received the 337 Field approval from the FAA for the Horizon P-1000 Tachometer today. That came along with the Operators Manual Supplement for the P-1000 signed by the FAA Aircraft Certification Office.
I have put the aircraft back on my Avemco insurance plan for flight starting this weekend.
I had mistakenly thought I needed a field approval for the installation of the Brackett air filter I installed on the engine as it is not included on the STC that Brackett has. However I found that it is actually listed on Tom Andersons TCM IO-360 engine STC along with the Paper Donaldson Air filter in the induction system installation drawing parts list.
Plan this weekend is to pull the cowl off and have another IA go over the installation to ensure I have not overlooked anything prior to first flight.
Beyond those items, making a huge log book entry and Steve’s review of the installation it is ready for first flight.
Jim