Negotiating a sale - setting a value

[docfoley]

I've been lurking for a quite a while learning as much as I can. This year I returned to flying after 20 years and have been renting but I am ready to get my own. I've never bought an airplane, although I am taking my father and he has bought many. He doesn't know the 170 market though. I've bought lot's of equipment and cars so I get it, but airplanes seem different somehow.

Next week I am going to look at two tired 170B's. Both have low time since overhaul but they both need paint and an interior. They both have dings and dents and one could use an aileron in my humble opinion. My dad looked at one yesterday and I have good photos of the other.

Both are asking the same $$ Comparing them to other 170B's and even 170A's that are in pretty good shape they are asking the same kind of money. One of them needs a panel too.

One of my reference points by the way is Bigrenna's recently sold 170B. I would have looked at it but it was slightly more than my budget and for sale just a little sooner than i was ready.

How do you set a value on a tired airplane that needs paint, interior, avionics and some metal work? How do you not offend a seller when they are $10K too high?

I'm not saying I am going to make an offer on either one as there are still several 170's for sale in the Northeast that I am going to look at, but I have to start somewhere.

Thanks,
Charley

[bagarre]

Both are asking the same $$ Comparing them to other 170B's and even 170A's that are in pretty good shape they are asking the same kind of money. One of them needs a panel too. .

How do you set a value on a tired airplane that needs paint, interior, avionics and some metal work? How do you not offend a seller when they are $10K too high?

Charley

If I had the choice between a B that needed work and a decent A for the same price, I'd take the A.

If the plane you are looking at needs paint, interior, avionics and metal work; you'll have a lot more in it than $10k that's rounds more like $25k or more.

Also, after seeing a C195 a guy bought, corrosion scares me more than any of those things.

One idea is to find a few planes in the condition you want and get an idea what they cost. Then talk to some folks for estimates to make these planes to that level. Cut the number in half, subtract it from his asking price and see what you get. I think this may shock YOU on how much it will cost to buy a fixer upper.

(Price to repair / 2) - price of plane = negative number.


In the end, it's always cheaper to buy the best one you can possibly afford.

Good luck!

[docfoley]

Thanks!
I can't do the paint but the interior I can. The avionics are functional but would need to be done over time. I know it's more than $10K though. I'm trying to build my arsenal of information. The third aircraft I plan to see is reportedly in better condition. After that I have to go farther afield and that starts to get expensive and I only have two weekends a month that I don't work. This may take well into next year. I am hoping to have something by next spring.

The other thing I have to factor in is the prop. I want a climb prop so I can fly off my farm and that's going to add more to it ( then the STOL, then the Bush wheels ). Flying Maine is going to be fun!

Charley

[blueldr]

Don't get a project airplane unless you get your jollies working on airplanes. Get the best flyer that your budget can affdord. A metal McCauley prop can be repitched to make a climb prop if it has not been previously done beyond certain limits. Shop around for repitching prices. I've seen it done from $75 to $400.
Projects almost always cost more than original estimates. Unless you really need a tailwheel airplane, an equal quality nosewheel airplane is usually less expensive and may be slightly less expensive to insure. It is also a lot less likely to ground loop. Early flat back, square tailed, C-172s are quite equal to the C-170B in performance and are generally somewhat less expensive to buy and insure. If you were to get one of them and then decide to "Macho" yourself up, you could give it a sex change operation like "Old Pokey"s and buy a Scott 3200 somewhere.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

One thing you have to factor in is your time and travel. You could easily spend a few thousand on airline tickets and then a long ferry flight. At the end you may have spent more for the same than if you had just ponied up a little more to the local airplane. I just had this exact conversation with another 170 buyer yesterday.

Still how do you know what 170s are worth or at least what sellers offer them for since your not likely to find out the actual selling price. You have to go look at them and it takes more than one or two. The 170 you feel is 10K high may be priced right. It may not actually be worth the price when compared to all other airframes but it might be the going price for a 170 and that is what you have zeroed in on.

Good luck.

[docfoley]

Bruce,

Good advice, thank you. I have made plans to look at three in the next week or two. That will help a lot. I have really only looked at one so far and it wasn't for sale.

Blue Leader,

Thanks. I am definitely set on a tail dragged. I have an equal amount of time in both and have been splitting my time between a 172 and a tail dragger. I like the appearance of the '58-60 172's but not as much as the 170. I have already looked at converting but the basic cost is not much different and the conversion is actually not straight forward with the FAA. It's pretty expensive too. I think it would still be better to find a good 170.

Projects are not usually a problem for me, but I have too many right now. I have several cars, tractors, and a couple of barns to restore. Cosmetic issues are fine but I don't really want to get into a restoration right now. I grew up with airplanes in the basement and helped my dad build an Avid flyer so I do know how it goes. Eventually I'll go there but not with this one

Charley

[bigrenna]

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[docfoley]

bigrenna,

Thanks for the advice! I downloaded your PDF to keep as a reference. Your 170 is/ was fantastic and I think a good bench mark.

I am going to look at 3 this next weekend. My dad looked at the first and said it was "ratty". It was owned by a friend of his so he has known it for a long time. It has had a wing replaced in the past and the trailing edges are beat up. The second one is in similar shape without damage history but one of the ailerons is messed up. The third one is in my backyard almost and has had some damage in the past but repaired by a well known A&P in this area. He actually bought the airplane well after repairing it twice. It is clean, well documented, and has recent paint and interior, hangared etc. In photos at least it looks like what I expect from a clean well maintained airplane.

I have the advantage of working with my dad who has owned a lot of airplanes in his life and even at 83 he is healthy and flying several times a week. He's an A&P too although not professionally. I planned on taking a mirror and flashlight but taking a tape measure is a great idea!

Charley

[GAHorn]

.... The third one is in my backyard almost and has had some damage in the past but repaired by a well known A&P in this area. He actually bought the airplane well after repairing it twice. It is clean, well documented, and has recent paint and interior, hangared etc. In photos at least it looks like what I expect from a clean well maintained airplane.
...

Sounds like the one you should investigate more. With due respects to bigrenna......travelling all over the world looking at airplanes is a good way to waste a lot of airplane-purchasing-dollars. A bird in the backyard is worth two in the bush...you can spend the search-money fixing it like you want it.

Your opening-comments in this thread is exactly why Aircraft Bluebooks are almost worthless. They purport to appraise similar airplanes respectively as regards time/conditon....but in actual fact, when it comes to classic 60 year old airplanes....no two are alike unless they are both Oshkosh quality restorations! The rest of the fleet are so divergent they defy "bluebook" valuations. (The current issue of "The Bluebook of Aircraft Values" is so far off (low) it is a worthless book as it pertains to classic aircraft. It's only worth is as it regards aircraft less than 25 years old or current production. This is true for many reasons, but only one example is that modern production aircraft leave the assy lines with standardized equipment/avionics packages. But in comparison, classic aircraft "run the gamut" on what equipment is installed. The list of other reasons/examples would be a book in itself, but let it suffice to say that virtually NO TWO classics are alike...and recent reported sales are of such different aircraft in such different condition, they defy comparison for bluebook purposes.)

[bigrenna]

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[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George and Greg are both right. A bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush BUT you have to be able to to identify that you have a bird in hand.

The caution here is to strike a balance. Learn what you can when you can. I NEVER turn down the opportunity to look at a 170 no matter how many times I've seen it. It is a continual learning/refresher course. Hopefully one finds the sweet spot and knows when he's seen enough and willing to pay a little extra for the machine close to home IF that is the way it works out before they've spent more money chasing the purchase.

[3958v]

I would encourage people to travel to see planes for sale but only if all indications are the plane is an 8 or better. I did a lot of searching locally but saw a nice 170 in TAP with an 800 number. I called with no Idea of the location. The call revealed the fact that the plane was 1000 miles away but it also sounded like a much nicer airplane than what I was looking at locally. After the owner sent me a picture I decided to go have a look and within 30 seconds I was 99% sure that was going to be my airplane. If the owner had given the location I would never had called about it. From that buying experience I learned three things. 1. Condition is by far the most important consideration when buying a used plane. 2. Planes having spent most of their life in the interior of the US tend to have less corosion issues. 3. Despite what some fools say Ragwings are great 170s

[GAHorn]

I think I told this once before, but it bears repeating:

My friend Bob, wanted a 170. It was near Savannah, GA in 1989. He saw it listed in TAP for $29K and asked myself and another friend, Gary W. (an A&P/IA) to help him by going with him to look at it.
I called the seller and talked to him. He praised the airplane.
I called the FBO where it was hangared. The FBO owner praised the airplane.
I called the Piper Cherokee owning deputy sheriff who shared the hangar. He praised the airplane, especially noting the beautiful paint job it had recently undergone. Deputy-Doug also said he'd known the seller many years and he was a fine fellow.

Now, Gary had a 182 and offered it for a mode of transport if Bob would buy the fuel. (In 1989 it was about $1.89 gal)

We left DAL and flew several hours to Georgia, and checked into a cheap motel so we could begin our inspection early in the AM. So far, Bob had spent about $1,000 dollars fuel, hotel, and meals just to go see this fine airplane.

It was a corroded hulk with Sears latex house-paint applied with a roller. The engine mount had a scarf-weld which included a ten-inch piece of common angle-iron. We didn't care to waste time on a compression check. We should have called FAA this thing was so obviously derelict.

By the time Bob found the airplane of his dreams he'd spent amost $3K searching, title-checking, travelling (and he generally flew non-rev as a Delta employee) and inspecting praised airplanes which were unsuitable for purchase.

After more than a year searching, he ended up locating his dream-plane less than 100 miles away, w/fresh annual for $12,500. He bought it, flew it home, enjoyed it for 6 years, and sold it for three times what he paid.
But the $3K he spent looking was money completely lost to useless chasing about looking at unsuitable airplanes. And it represented about a FOURTH of his airplane buying budget. He could have had a much nicer airplane had that money been used instead of travelling looking at wild geese.

(When someone gets bitten by the airplane bug, they will go look at anything, anywhere, willy-nilly. Don't do that!)

The best airpalnes I've owned have all been found within a 150 mile radius of home. This made it easy to inspect them, (repeatedly if necessary), talk to shops that had worked on them, talk to previous owners of them, and avoid long, expensive travel trips involving hotels and meals and companion expenses.

Another suggestion: In the first paragraph of discussion, ask the seller about clear title and liens....but don't waste time/money on title searches until a sales-deal/prices is settled-upon.
Many potential airplane new owners waste money on several searches about airplanes subsequently rejected for reasons other than title. In other words, do the title search before hiring the annual inspector....but after negotiating the sale-terms. It's wasteful to search titles of "potentials" until they become worthy of pre-purchase, annual inspections.

[docfoley]

Everyone has good advice and I thank all of you. I do think I will be able to find an airplane without traveling too far afield. I can't anyway. Dogs, horses and my day job keep me from going very far from my farm. Looking at every thing you can is always good but it's true there is a cost benefit ratio to it.

I too have travelled to see something that has been mis advertised only to find junk when I got there. Airplanes number one and two are clearly going to be educational jaunts and a chance to look at multiple different problems and logs. Plus I can pick my dads brain. He's owned 14 aircraft and built at least 3 others so this weekend will be a good trip. It's will help when I get to number 3 which I will see on my own. There are several other 170 s that I may go see as well. There is another 170 that is not yet for sale but will be that I have been told about by three people so clearly there are options.

This will be a fun weekend and I am looking forward to it. I'll take lots of photos.

[ghostflyer]

I have read your blogs with great interest and many have have very valid reasoning however I saw a trend in the type of information recieved and how we developed our perception of the aircraft at interest ,and a number of people that had listern to people that had a stake in the aircraft in some way which resulted in a distorted view of condition of the aircraft. So whats the answer to recieving the correct information on the condition of the aircraft . WE must use ALL our sensors to make a decision [a correct one hopefully]. Sight is the fore most we use in life then sound and smell. And to answer a question ,as you are pondering has this Australian writing this been on the wacky weed ? NO. I will keep writing. Using the internet ask the seller to send hundreds of photos of the aircraft ,close ups and distance shots, different angles ,interior [a picture is worth a thousand words].A good paint job will hide a thousand sins also.So be carefull and ask and keep asking why the new paint job? Ask the seller does he have a video of it flying,taking note how the control wheel is situated in flight and if all the instruments are working,get the seller to scan some pages from the aircraft log book. Its often how the log book has been written and compiled gives direction to the condition of the aircraft. The coffee stains on the pages or the oil stained pages often gives clues to the type of FBO that services the aircraft. A very well written book with all required information often shows the standard of workman- ship . However the computer generated log books are making life hard in this area. Talk to the owner[seller] on several occasions and listen to his story. Ask some hard questions and see how defendsive he become when pushed on a subjects of accidents, corrosion etc. How does the story changes each time . Does it get better and better each time. This can be all done before leaving home. I make a list of aircraft from the least interested to the best prospects in a order. If a "dud" is close by I will go and have a look as an education. Due to the age and rareity of good aircraft we have to travel to get the good ones.
In my earlier ramblings I mention smell. Not long ago I was inspecting a perfect 172 and only 2 years old. I flew it and log books were good and i couldnt fault it but some time wasnt right. I was sitting in the aircraft with doors closed and every thing switched off . I could smell very strong ladies perfume. It was very overpowering . Then under the smell ther was another smell of muskness or dampness. The perfume was covering the real reason of the sale of the aircraft. The aircraft had been under water during a flood. It wasnt written in the log books and the owner had purchased it back from the insurance company after it had been written off. He had replaced the Garmin 1000 and didnt even strip the engine. A very good clean job was done but it stilled smelled.
So what I am saying is use all our sensors when purchasing a aircraft and yes we might to travel to get that perfect aircraft. Overall its your hard earned money.