Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

How to keep the Cessna 170 flying and airworthy.

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daedaluscan
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Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by daedaluscan »

I am looking at a new engine in the near future.

I would like to go 0-360, but am almost sure that it is not in my budget. Ive talked to Dave Stoots, and will talk to Delaire next week. Is the Bush STC avaialable - I have heard different stories?

So my options are probably to rebuild my 0-300 A, or purchase a mid time engine.

Could someone explain the suffix on the 0-300 A, C or D? Which do I need.

Any advice or leads on engines much appreciated.

Charlie
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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c170b53
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by c170b53 »

Charlie I thought you were in Victoria, I've wanted to meet you but Active pass- ZBB airspace is too active for me. Are you really based at Gillies bay? We need to talk :D
JDV bought the engine from Ken last week, that's what you should be looking for in my opinion.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

The Williams, owners of the Bush STCs have not been heard from in many many years. It would seem most of the people who where the last to hear from them paid money for promised product. There is no support for their STCs.

I wouldn't know what you would have heard to the contrary.

It would seem from reports in recent years, since the passing of Harry Delicure several years ago, the Delaire STCs might be slow to get if they are available at all. I would certainly call them but I wouldn't be surprised Stoots is the only game in town.
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

As for the standard engine found in the 170 it is either a C-145-2 or a C-145-2H or a 0-300A. The C-145-2 became the 0-300A about 1956 with a marketing name change by Continental. The C-145-2H became the 0-300B.

The -2H and the B have a hydraulic on/off control for a prop of which there are virtually no props to control. All of these engines use an 8 bolt crank which is important when you shop cause your 8 bolt prop and spinner will fit.

The 0-300C has a 6 bolt crank but still retains the same starter as the earlier engines. The 0-300D has a 6 bolt crank but has an angle starter and also a vacuum pump pad. There are two important things to know if you decide you might want to buy a C or D engine. 1. Your prop and spinner will have to be replaced with a 6 bolt prop and spinner. 2. The C and D are not legal on a 170 without approval but the Association has and will sell you very reasonably, an STC to make the installation of the C and D legal on your 170.
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bagarre
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by bagarre »

I spoke to DelAir (Chris?) a few weeks ago about their instrument panel STC and their engine STC came up.
They are still in business and fully supporting the STC.
Give them a call, they are good people.
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ghostflyer
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by ghostflyer »

If you go the way of a STC , be sure that you know exactly what you pay for and receive. Be sure that the STC covers all parts to be fitted and have PMA,s or and release notes. I am very aware of a case now where a STC was paid for and some parts arrived and a excuse was made for the non supply of a engine frame but drawings [very rough] were in the box and a written note saying they didn’t make the engine frames now as they didn’t have the approval. The steel tubing for the engine frame was supplied .When the the inquirey was made over the phone it was stated “everything “ is supplied . I am now questioning the legal aspects of the STC with the FAA on behalf of the client .Get everything in writing first. Also see if the STC is still on the FAA web site also . On going support for the STC is also very important and a must especially if you reside outside of the USA [ different countries have different rules regarding STC,s and modifications ] . Presently I am,doing a heap of research on the applications of STC,s and the legal aspect on the current owners and people who fit the STC,s etc . Unfortunately it’s not black and white and every STC can not be painted with the same brush. A current operations manual for that modified aircraft also has to be supplied . Talk to people that have used a particular STC before and I am sure they will tell you of all pit falls and bonuses. Also,make sure that particular STC is appropriate for your make and model and serial number . [ I have been caught out here]. Some STC builders get approvals for a Cessna 170 but fail to include the A and B series .
I hope I haven’t discouraged you with the fitment of a O-360 engine but go into it with your eyes open . Yes I have fitted a O-360,and it was a lot of fun [blood, sweat,tears] and do it again in a heart beat ,but costs and availability of STC,s and the legal aspects have to be considered.
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by Bruce Fenstermacher »

bagarre wrote:I spoke to DelAir (Chris?) a few weeks ago about their instrument panel STC and their engine STC came up.
They are still in business and fully supporting the STC.
Give them a call, they are good people.
I did not want anyone to get the impression I thought the people at Delaire were not good people. I've never heard anything bad about them. I have heard, specially right after Harry past away, that people waited a long time for availability of the engine STC. I sure hope they continue to fully support their STCs. And as I suggested I would certainly call them if I was in the market to do an engine upgrade.
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c170b53
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by c170b53 »

I've avoided bringing up my exchange with Del-air because, well it wasn't the best but thats just my experience. Others have reported good experiences and have been very happy with them. Unfortunately some like me just couldn't waste any more time waiting as in my case after having made various arrangements, at the end of 18 months it all fell apart. Harry made great stuff, maybe the new owner does as well but for whatever reason the new crowd couldn't provide me with a detailed listing of all the parts contained in the kit.
Probably this situation wouldn't be a priority/deal breaker for someone acquiring the kit in the states but for customs purposes, no paper meant the kit couldn't cross the border. I would think without paper that would be any border. Hopefully maybe they will get this sorted out in the future.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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c170b53
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by c170b53 »

Further to my post, my experience occurred early fall 2015 to early spring 2017. Unfortunately for me, It may have been a time when Del-Air was busy with other business. I would think that the demands for engine conversions would vary somewhat in a year and from year to year which inevitably would cause problems in production.
There's not many in the game because there's not much gain for the pain.
Jim McIntosh..
1953 C170B S/N 25656
02 K1200RS
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daedaluscan
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by daedaluscan »

Thanks for all the information, especially the clarification on the engine numbers from Bruce.

I will talk to Del-Air this week.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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daedaluscan
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by daedaluscan »

I had a very pleasant and informative chat with Chris at Del Air.

He supports two STCs, one for fixed pitch, one constant speed, for 0-360 Lycomings. His kits supply everything needed except engine prop and vacuum pump. (some minor stuff also like sheet metal to cover one exhaust hole, nuts and washers for exhaust studs, oil, some rivets and fasteners)

Not available right now, he hopes to be able to supply by early summer.
Charlie

1956 170B C-GDRG #27019
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GAHorn
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Re: Engine upgrade, rebuild, used or 0-360

Post by GAHorn »

From the TCM X30013 Overhaul Maual, Intro Page (ii):

The significant differences between the 0-300 models are as follows:

A. The 0-300-A engine has a SAE No. 3 flanged propeller shaft and provisions
for a starter, generator, voltage regulator and fuel pump.

B. The 0-300-B engine is identical to the 0-300-A except for provisions for use
of a manually controlled hydraulic propeller.

C. The 0-300-C engine is identical to the 0-300-A except for ARP 502 Type I
flanged propeller shaft and Slick Electro Inc., Magnetos. Information regarding
maintenance, overhaul or adjustment of these magnetos may be obtained from
Slick Magneto Inc. , Rockford, Illinois. All 0-300-C engines subsequent to serial
No. 21001 are so equipped that a right angle starter drive can be used if desired.

(Bold added by myself for emphasis. This note is coincident with an accy-case design-
change.)

D. The 0-300-D engine is identical to the 0-300-C except that the starter is
mounted on an adapter which provides a right angle drive.

E. The 0-300-E engine is similar to the 0-300-D except for incorporation of
governor drive pad and crankshaft provisions to supply governor oil to the propeller.
F. An alternator is available as optional eqUipment on the 0-300-C, D and E
engines. Service information on the alternator may be obtained from General
Parts Division, Ford Motor Co., P. O. Box 412, Ypsilante, Michigan.


The comment regarding Slick magnetos on the O-300-C/D engines is, of course, not a requirement... but only a specification as TCM originally supplied the engine. Approvals for other mfrs magnetos and accys are found elsewhere.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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